patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby bldavis » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:19 pm

Teranoid wrote:Yeah.. "cool". That's totally the word I'd use to describe it.

sorry did i forget the [sarcasm][/sarcasm] markers? my bad

hey man, to each their own, im sure there are things you like that i would look at and go WTF


as for the changes...i am starting to think they just put random brain pukes on a bunch of post it notes and put them on a dart board and go
we made this change *throws dart* for this reason *throws another dart* to fix this problem *throws 2 darts, just in case*
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:32 pm

@Ghostcrawler no offense, but you guys knew about Haste and Prot Paladins since well before live.
Re: @Zackfig At the time we thought it was an undergeared problem because dodge doesn't matter when failing a dodge kills you.
Re: @Zackfig We still sort of suspect that's the problem but it's become such a mantra that it's worth changing anyway.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:23 pm

And I have no fucking idea how NERFING SotR would do anything to solve our love for Haste, specially since our love for haste is tied to:
a) Hit and Exp due to our need to NOT MISS our HP generators
b) the double roll on block chance greatly devaluing not just mastery, but avoidance in general.


While I'm sure that they'll come up with a stupid reason for why they never did it (they've always overvalued avoidance or total damage reduction compared to players, and never really understood why people don't quite buy in that way), hitting ShoR WOULD affect the value of Haste. It would also affect Mastery, Hit and Exp, but it would hit Haste relative to Dodge/Parry if more of our mitigation was tied to avoidance and passive effects and less to ShoR, especially if they hit ShoR's effectiveness and then do something odd to tie avoidance into that crowd (like Dodge/Parry tying into HP in some roundabout way, or amplifying Mastery, or something odd like that) to "even out".
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:40 pm

Darielle wrote:
And I have no fucking idea how NERFING SotR would do anything to solve our love for Haste, specially since our love for haste is tied to:
a) Hit and Exp due to our need to NOT MISS our HP generators
b) the double roll on block chance greatly devaluing not just mastery, but avoidance in general.


While I'm sure that they'll come up with a stupid reason for why they never did it (they've always overvalued avoidance or total damage reduction compared to players, and never really understood why people don't quite buy in that way), hitting ShoR WOULD affect the value of Haste. It would also affect Mastery, Hit and Exp, but it would hit Haste relative to Dodge/Parry if more of our mitigation was tied to avoidance and passive effects and less to ShoR, especially if they hit ShoR's effectiveness and then do something odd to tie avoidance into that crowd (like Dodge/Parry tying into HP in some roundabout way, or amplifying Mastery, or something odd like that) to "even out".


They can nerf sanctity of battle... and hit our haste overall, but nerfing SotR straight out seems counter-intuitive as it would most likely devalue mastery as well, since SotR mitigation is tied to how much mastery we have...

you're pretty much right, they would need to make us a bit more passive somewhere else to make up for it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:15 pm

The warrior set looks... interesting

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:28 pm

They can nerf sanctity of battle... and hit our haste overall, but nerfing SotR straight out seems counter-intuitive as it would most likely devalue mastery as well, since SotR mitigation is tied to how much mastery we have...


It would, but since they seem to be specifically concerned about D/P and not just Haste, that might be their goal.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:37 pm

Darielle wrote:
They can nerf sanctity of battle... and hit our haste overall, but nerfing SotR straight out seems counter-intuitive as it would most likely devalue mastery as well, since SotR mitigation is tied to how much mastery we have...


It would, but since they seem to be specifically concerned about D/P and not just Haste, that might be their goal.


still not seeing it how that would prop D/P.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenris » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:20 pm

Klaudandus wrote:The warrior set looks... interesting

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First thing i though yesterday

"That kind of looks like a paladin tier"


First thing that our monk tank (ex-warrior) said looking at it

"Hey,that looks like a paladin"

First thing one of our dps warriors said

"is that the paladin set?"

Nothing of this is made up btw
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:56 pm

still not seeing it how that would prop D/P.


Anything they do to the Haste-Hit-Expertise-Mastery chain in theory weakens them compared to Dodge-Parry. Given their apparent goal is to "not nerf survivability", that means whatever compensation will in theory make Dodge-Parry both "better than before" and "better compared to Hit-Haste-Exp-Mastery".

Now of course that doesn't mean we'll actually try to stack them.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:02 pm

Darielle wrote:that means whatever compensation will in theory make Dodge-Parry both "better than before" and "better compared to Hit-Haste-Exp-Mastery".

Now of course that doesn't mean we'll actually try to stack them.


I'm uncertain how they can make random chance avoidance attractive. You'd think they'd've learned by now that tanks hate randomness.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:06 am

Klaudandus wrote:@Ghostcrawler no offense, but you guys knew about Haste and Prot Paladins since well before live.
Re: @Zackfig At the time we thought it was an undergeared problem because dodge doesn't matter when failing a dodge kills you.
Re: @Zackfig We still sort of suspect that's the problem but it's become such a mantra that it's worth changing anyway.


fuzzygeek wrote:
Darielle wrote:that means whatever compensation will in theory make Dodge-Parry both "better than before" and "better compared to Hit-Haste-Exp-Mastery".

Now of course that doesn't mean we'll actually try to stack them.


I'm uncertain how they can make random chance avoidance attractive. You'd think they'd've learned by now that tanks hate randomness.


I'm really having a bad feeling about this, but I'm still willing to admit it's "the sky is falling!". What needs to be said and realised by everyone concerned is WHY we like Haste - its influence on ShotR due to Sanctity of Battle.

Maybe they should simply scrap SoB, and compensate with a buff to our Mastery coefficient. This way, Haste is removed from the equation, we eat Mastery like it's gone out of style, then stack Stamina. Because as long as Haste as a decent (non-insignificant) influence on Hit/Exp/Mastery, we'll keep looking for Haste instead of avoidance, no matter how hard you hit on ShotR.

Best case scenario, we move from a Haste-based gearing to a Mastery-based gearing (which was one of the big contenders Theck analysed, with its highest downside being the net DPS loss). If memory serves, Theck's numbers place Hit/Exp/Mastery above avoidance, even with low haste values.

EDIT: Re: GC's comments. I thought Theck had made it incredibly clear why we like controllable defenses, i.e. to limit the threat of high spikes on the one hand, and to keep healers calm and cool under pressure on the other hand.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Jadhzia » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:49 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Paladin
- For Protection, we do have plans to try and lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry. We don't want to make haste terrible for paladins, but we agree that it's odd for it to be better than more traditional tank stats. It might require a nerf to Shield of the Righteous to do this, but our goal is not to nerf survivability overall. We just wanted to provide you some context if you see odd changes to tanking abilities.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=45#884

It was good while it lasted.


I'm extremely hostile to such a change... It took a lot of time, gear selection, upgrades and valor points to build the gear I have now. This change would remove one of the most fun and interesting parts of our gameplay, and to replace it with what... random passive avoidance.

If I post something through the "feedback" interface ingame, do you think it'll reach the devs? Being on a european server, I can't post on the US forums in response to the blue post.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:04 am

First thing first, I think the EU forums are a better place to feedback than the in-game tool. Twitter seems to be a good plan right now as well.

This forum is also a good place to discuss this. Even if no-one from Blizz reads these forums (doubtful, especially if we're the target of changes), a good post can be copy-pasted or condensed somewhere it will be read. It's like what they say at the Lottery - 100% of the winner tried their luck, and in our situation, tickets are free!

Also, we should be really careful about why we think one way or another. "Because we made a gear set" sounds a bit childish (especially consider we get a whole new tier at the same time) - gear comes and goes. "Because it pushes random passive effects forward at the expense of dynamic gameplay" is much more reasonable, although one could argue that they could simply phase Haste out and keep Mastery roughly where it is, like by removing SoB where we'd still use and abuse active mitigation.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:24 am

I asked GC a few months back what he thought of Dodge/Parry being so undervalued by Paladins, but he just dodged the question and turned it back on me.

I like the way they made haste/hit/exp gearing work and have been thinking it was time they just scrap tank stats on gear; I got the impression that it was pretty widely popular. Apparently Blizzard disagrees and wants tank stats back.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby lythac » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:49 am

Shoju wrote:About the only way you could save 25m is to give them an out of raid "perk" of some sort


Have bosses drop 5 lesser charms. All it does is save 25 man raiders time and frustration (from daily quests), which they get from being in a 25 man guild. Although it doesn't solve the guild/raid leader time investment compared to basic raider issue.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:55 am

Raid leader gets 10 lesser charms, and other players get 5 per boss? Or 5 and 3? There's your extra loot for 25's right there. Hell, push it to 20 and 10 for all I care! 9 bosses = all your Lesser charm needs for the week!

EDIT: even better: chance (I think between 15 and 25% per boss) of ELDER charm dropping. With higher chance if you raid lead.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:02 am

Sagara wrote:First thing first, I think the EU forums are a better place to feedback than the in-game tool. Twitter seems to be a good plan right now as well.

This forum is also a good place to discuss this. Even if no-one from Blizz reads these forums (doubtful, especially if we're the target of changes), a good post can be copy-pasted or condensed somewhere it will be read. It's like what they say at the Lottery - 100% of the winner tried their luck, and in our situation, tickets are free!

Also, we should be really careful about why we think one way or another. "Because we made a gear set" sounds a bit childish (especially consider we get a whole new tier at the same time) - gear comes and goes. "Because it pushes random passive effects forward at the expense of dynamic gameplay" is much more reasonable, although one could argue that they could simply phase Haste out and keep Mastery roughly where it is, like by removing SoB where we'd still use and abuse active mitigation.


How about this list:
  • Haste gives us more control over our incoming damage. The loss of haste firstly removes any benefit we gain from bloodlust, and makes for a much slower (i.e. more boring) play style
  • Haste allows us to further reduce our damage taken by a reliable amount through the scaling of Sacred Shield
  • There is no way to make Dodge and Parry attractive enough that we would take them over Haste or Mastery. If Haste and Mastery become less attractive than Dodge and Parry all we will do is go back to the Stamina stacking of WotLK
  • Haste makes the game-play more dynamic and more active. Removing it means that we will end up going back to the boring old 969 style rotation that a braindead monkey could perform to perfection
  • Why do we need to have avoidance stats on our gear? Diminishing Returns are so strong even at low rating levels that the amount of avoidance you get per point simply isn't worth it. Why not simply scrap tanking stats altogether and allow all tanks to use a combination of haste, mastery and crit and remove a bit of bloat from the loot tables? We get a lot of Parry from Strength anyway, and two of the 5 tank classes don't even use those stats at all, they already tank with DPS gear (druid, monk).
  • This expansion was meant to be about giving the tank more personal responsibility over their damage intake and self-healing. Active Mitigation was the buzz-word of the beta with regards to tanking. Are we really going to see that scrapped in favour of passive damage reductions and random effects? That seems contrary to everything said in the last 12 months.
  • Finally, Haste is a fun stat. It increases the amount of buttons we can press in a given time frame, it allows us to show off on the damage numbers every now and again and you can see your potential survivability going up. Dodge, Parry (and to a lesser extent Mastery) do not do this. Isn't "it is fun" a valid argument anymore?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Jadhzia » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:03 am

Sagara wrote:First thing first, I think the EU forums are a better place to feedback than the in-game tool. Twitter seems to be a good plan right now as well.

This forum is also a good place to discuss this. Even if no-one from Blizz reads these forums (doubtful, especially if we're the target of changes), a good post can be copy-pasted or condensed somewhere it will be read. It's like what they say at the Lottery - 100% of the winner tried their luck, and in our situation, tickets are free!

Also, we should be really careful about why we think one way or another. "Because we made a gear set" sounds a bit childish (especially consider we get a whole new tier at the same time) - gear comes and goes. "Because it pushes random passive effects forward at the expense of dynamic gameplay" is much more reasonable, although one could argue that they could simply phase Haste out and keep Mastery roughly where it is, like by removing SoB where we'd still use and abuse active mitigation.


Thanks for the tips. The post is here. I hope it'll contribute in a way.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:30 am

Fetzie wrote:How about this list:


Great! That's how we get things moving! I'm going to be splitting and combining a couple of things that I feel deserve grouped or separate coverage. Feel free to slap me upside the head.

  • Haste gives us more control over our incoming damage.
    Nothing that Mastery cannot replace. Haste is a "twin" to Mastery, extending ShotR coverage instead of power.
  • The loss of haste firstly removes any benefit we gain from bloodlust
    Which means BL is no longer a survival CD for us, in short. I did a quick comparaison of AMR's values for the other plate tanks and they don't seem to value haste. So we were the oddball. I'll agree we can't end up losing potential against the other tanks, but BL is more along the "Nice to have" things that won't make or break gameplay.
  • and makes for a much slower (i.e. more boring) play style
    THAT, on the other hand, is annoying as hell, although I'm willing to admit it's QoL mostly - it's just SO fun when we get a massive Haste buff and start hitting key like Kenshiro on speed.
  • Haste allows us to further reduce our damage taken by a reliable amount through the scaling of Sacred Shield
    I'll admit ignorance - isn't the increase in SS by haste limited to breakpoints giving extra ticks? How easy is it to get an extra tick anyway? Further, we won't *lose* that power, it's just that we'd have to balance it against other options.
  • There is no way to make Dodge and Parry attractive enough that we would take them over Haste or Mastery. If Haste and Mastery become less attractive than Dodge and Parry all we will do is go back to the Stamina stacking of WotLK
    100% totaly agreed. If anything, I'd advocated pushing Haste back and bringing Mastery forward instead. We *won't* stack dodge or parry unless there's basically nothing else left. I'm almost thinking we'd rather improve our DPS to help Raid DPS than stack avoidance.
  • Haste makes the game-play more dynamic and more active. Removing it means that we will end up going back to the boring old 969 style rotation that a braindead monkey could perform to perfection
    Not true. There are players working with the Mastery/Control approach and their rotation is equal to the Haste/Control approach, if just a tad slower. What would probably bring us back to 969 or 939 is either a new filler to eat up the holes in our rotation, or CS/HotR going back to 3sec CD.
  • Why do we need to have avoidance stats on our gear? Diminishing Returns are so strong even at low rating levels that the amount of avoidance you get per point simply isn't worth it. Why not simply scrap tanking stats altogether and allow all tanks to use a combination of haste, mastery and crit and remove a bit of bloat from the loot tables? We get a lot of Parry from Strength anyway, and two of the 5 tank classes don't even use those stats at all, they already tank with DPS gear (druid, monk).
    *DING DING DING DING* We have a winner! If we weren't mid-xpack, I'd advocate finding some use for crit for tanks and throwing away the entire dodge/parry (idea: critical dodge - critical strike rating now increases your chance to dodge an attack by allowing to better predict incoming attacks).
  • This expansion was meant to be about giving the tank more personal responsibility over their damage intake and self-healing. Active Mitigation was the buzz-word of the beta with regards to tanking. Are we really going to see that scrapped in favour of passive damage reductions and random effects? That seems contrary to everything said in the last 12 months.
    This is fondamentally the same as your first point. Blizz shouldn't push AM away, and the best approach is to secure Mastery's place as the "control stat".
  • Finally, Haste is a fun stat. It increases the amount of buttons we can press in a given time frame, it allows us to show off on the damage numbers every now and again and you can see your potential survivability going up. Dodge, Parry (and to a lesser extent Mastery) do not do this. Isn't "it is fun" a valid argument anymore?
    It is! I'd love to have a better solution than to lose the fun factor of haste stacking. But what we DO need first is a way to not eat into Plate DPSer's loot tables. If we can get both, all the better - but is that possible?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:47 am

Shoju wrote:
Worldie wrote:For me 10 men is "the raid size for casual and friendly gameplay", it will never be real raiding :P


You really couldn't be more wrong. I've actually done heroic mode progress on both sizes this tier (25 man Sha was a world 19 25 man kill, 10 man was a world 72 10 man kill) and 25 man is a snoozefest compared to 10 at the moment. Yes, it's harder to organize logistically but no way in hell you can tell me the encounters are harder. Add that to the fact that you gear up way more efficiently already in 25 man (loot rarely gets sharded because no one can equip it, more items drop per person).

I could even argue that high end progression 10 mans are even harder to organize logistically. You really need to be extremely flexible in your setup. Just look at Empress - good luck doing that without either 2 disc priests or a disc priest and a shaman healer.

I'm just kind of annoyed with this change. Considering there are some items my guild just haven't seen DROP, ever, this tier (hello Elegon trinket) it's not going to be fun having even more RNG in a loot system already plagued by it. For comparison it took me 14 weeks to even see the shield from Spirit Kings drop, and I used a coin every week on it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:49 am

I'll admit ignorance - isn't the increase in SS by haste limited to breakpoints giving extra ticks? How easy is it to get an extra tick anyway? Further, we won't *lose* that power, it's just that we'd have to balance it against other options.

5 base ticks.

6th tick @ 10% spell haste = naked with SoI
7th tick @ 30% spell haste = about 6500 rating with SoI and 5% raid buff
8th tick @ 50% spell haste = about 11500 rating with SoI and 5% raid buff

The 7th tick is easily reachable while keeping hit and expertise capped with 490+gear. The 8th tick requires trinket procs or external haste effects at our current gear level. Would probably be obtainable just with gear in T15 heroic gear.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:55 am

Fetzie wrote:
I'll admit ignorance - isn't the increase in SS by haste limited to breakpoints giving extra ticks? How easy is it to get an extra tick anyway? Further, we won't *lose* that power, it's just that we'd have to balance it against other options.

5 base ticks.

6th tick @ 10% spell haste = naked with SoI
7th tick @ 30% spell haste = about 6500 rating with SoI and 5% raid buff
8th tick @ 50% spell haste = about 11500 rating with SoI and 5% raid buff

The 7th tick is easily reachable while keeping hit and expertise capped with 490+gear. The 8th tick requires trinket procs or external haste effects at our current gear level. Would probably be obtainable just with gear in T15 heroic gear.


Yeah, so we're definitly going to lose something in the process. OTOH, SS is currently a no-brainer.
I wouldn't mind seeing some of its power transfered (no lost, get me Blizz?) to our class/spec abilities instead, and the lost extra ticks might be a good place to start.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:58 am

It's possible that part of their argument for the upcoming changes is the same negative that prompted me to ask GC about it: It's counterintuitive for "tank" stats to be the least desirable. They may consider this a barrier to tanks who don't rely on out-of-game resources.

The only solutions if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.

-
I find it odd that GCs response to why they waited, though, is that they thought tanks would stop trying to maximise ShoR uptime through haste once they had enough health to more comfortably survive hits without it. Seems like a total misunderstanding of how tanks think (and of how good ShoR is).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:01 am

It is also quite easy, with trinket /use or proc, to reach the 90% spell haste mark with bloodlust active (5 extra ticks @150k AP is about 400k absorb per 30 seconds).
The only solution if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They are giving warriors haste scaling in 5.2, and how hard could it be to tell a database to replace all values for dodge rating with crit rating, and all values for parry rating with haste rating?

And as for making dps plate more desireable, just leave current tanking items on the loot table, the same items will drop, just that now anybody can use them.

Another point: Having ret and prot use the same gear and stat priorities makes using a secondary spec much, much more convenient. Isn't optimal, because stamina gems don't make you do more damage, but workable at the very least.
Last edited by Fetzie on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Fetzie
 
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:06 am

Fetzie wrote:
The only solution if you approach things with that in mind is to either nerf it, or completely redesign tank gear by removing dodge/parry. Guess which is easier.


They are giving warriors haste scaling in 5.2, and how hard could it be to tell a database to replace all values for dodge rating with crit rating, and all values for parry rating with haste rating?


Didn't know that and would love to read about it. Any pointers while I try and look around?
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Sagara
 
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