patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:45 am

Worldie wrote:This new Thunderforged shit makes me wonder wtf they are thinking. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
http://www.wowhead.com/news=210196/thun ... e-ptr-soon

Wow.....
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:47 am

Reasoning makes sense, but everybody hates everything, so what are you gonna do.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenris » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:51 am

Flex wrote:Reasoning makes sense, but everybody hates everything, so what are you gonna do.

Reasoning makes sense.

The way they ended with that reasoning makes not.


Balancing 25 and 10 based on,in the end,drop-luck?Yeah...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:53 am

It's still not going to stop the decline of 25 man raiding.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:06 am

So they tried out valor having continued use to increase your items, now they're trying out rare-drop higher ilevel loot. Guess this is the "lets experiment with new ways to extend content and keep people raiding" expansion. Blizzard don't seem to like that much of the patch cycle tends to be high activity when a new tier/season launches then a decline until the next comes out.

This system is different, and I'm not sure there's anything wrong with the idea. Lets see how it feels in practice.

Regarding 10/25: Any benefit that is theoretical and not immediately recognisable when playing is going to have a minimal effect on which size raid people choose. Having a "small chance" for slightly better loot isn't something that will instantly make people feel that organising a 25 is worth the effort, though it might bring some players across.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:09 am

Fact is simple, the only way to revitalize 25 men is to give them again better loots. Make Thunderforged only drop in 25, then we'd be talking.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:10 am

I don't mind the Thunderforged, and it may explain why they removed the upgrade dude, but it still won't solve the 25 man thing. It just makes farm content more relevant, provides for more loot drama, and theoretically will slowly boost progression.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:11 am

Worldie wrote:Fact is simple, the only way to revitalize 25 men is to give them again better loots. Make Thunderforged only drop in 25, then we'd be talking.

I don't think getting more players back into 25 player is really worth screwing over the 10-man segment of the player base.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:12 am

Worldie wrote:Fact is simple, the only way to revitalize 25 men is to give them again better loots. Make Thunderforged only drop in 25, then we'd be talking.


And thus make 25 man the mandatory raid size, if the drop rate isn't minuscule.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:13 am

KysenMurrin wrote:
Worldie wrote:Fact is simple, the only way to revitalize 25 men is to give them again better loots. Make Thunderforged only drop in 25, then we'd be talking.

I don't think getting more players back into 25 player is really worth screwing over the 10-man segment of the player base.


But to Worldie that isn't real raiding anyway... :roll:
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:14 am

Worldie wrote:Fact is simple, the only way to revitalize 25 men is to give them again better loots. Make Thunderforged only drop in 25, then we'd be talking.


So you think this implementation is "the stupidest thing you've ever heard" only on the basis that 10 man get a chance at it as well? Weird pov.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:15 am

For me 10 men is "the raid size for casual and friendly gameplay", it will never be real raiding :P

Either way, what I think doesn't really matter. The point is that the only way to make 25 men worth doing to compensate for the additional effort required to have a 25 men guild running is to either give better loots to them, or 25-only achievemends with lookable rewards (title, mount, transmog gear, whatever), or at least to do like they did in China, making 25 men drop gear already upgraded.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:20 am

KysenMurrin wrote:
Worldie wrote:Fact is simple, the only way to revitalize 25 men is to give them again better loots. Make Thunderforged only drop in 25, then we'd be talking.

I don't think getting more players back into 25 player is really worth screwing over the 10-man segment of the player base.


As long as they don't get 4 thunderforged in 25 for 1 in 10 mans.... Like what happened with the Firelands heroic...

Worldie wrote: making 25 men drop gear already upgraded.

The 1-free upgrade in the asian loot system is nice, because its actually possible for 10 mans to reach the same goal line, it just happens that 25s start one step closer to it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:33 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Worldie wrote: making 25 men drop gear already upgraded.

The 1-free upgrade in the asian loot system is nice, because its actually possible for 10 mans to reach the same goal line, it just happens that 25s start one step closer to it.


Thought the Asian system had 25 start out at 2/4 upgrades while 10s were 0/2 or whatever
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:49 am

Oh, my bad then...

I thought the difference was that they were getting 500 ilvl gear that could be upgraded up to 504, whereas the 10mans were getting the 496 gear

nvm...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Hawkslayer » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:55 am

I don't mind Blizzard making it easier for 25-mans to get better loot, but the whole idea of it being impossible for 10-mans to get the same loot as 25-mans is not a direction I will follow again.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:07 pm

And lets face it, attrition of the playerbase is also playing in. The people that raided 40 man in vanilla and 25 man in BC are getting older. As you get older you have more real life commitments - heck most of our raidgroup (before we called a stop to it ) were either getting babies, having kids or were kids themselves back when 40mand and 25 man were the only raidsizes for end game - so apart from 25man being logistically harder, they also suffer from RL more, so 25man raiding will never be "the thing" again. Hence, incentivising 25man further is really just "rewarding the ones that can still stick to it despite RL".

Tbh, apart from the bigh world first race guilds, 10 man is now the "real raiding" and 25 man is where you can bring along people just for being "friends and family2 because the others can pick up the slack - unlike in 10 man where 1 dps lost in e.g. Elegon means a wipe because there is a "spark" that won't be taken down.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:33 pm

That's a pretty hefty generalisation. If a raid group can carry people who are underperforming, then that raid group is dealing with content below their capabilities, regardless of their raid size. We boosted a social through a bunch of 10 man heroic kills when someone couldn't make it and he was doing 60% of the average dps. We couldn't tackle some with that player in the raid because we were barely beating enrage with our main team at the time. The same applies to 25 man groups; if they're having to carry "friends and family" then their progress is going to be handicapped as a result, and it's impossible to quantify which raid size suffers more as a result of this on a general basis, as it depends entirely on the specific requirements of each fight.

One could give the counter-example that on spirit kings heroic, or windlord it only takes one person to not stop attacking during a shield/derping a wind bomb to wipe the raid, so getting 25 people to react properly is harder than 10. Honestly trying to claim one format is more "real" than another is a horse that's been beaten to death, they're just different, with some encounters easier in one format than the other.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:34 pm

Tbh, apart from the bigh world first race guilds, 10 man is now the "real raiding" and 25 man is where you can bring along people just for being "friends and family2 because the others can pick up the slack - unlike in 10 man where 1 dps lost in e.g. Elegon means a wipe because there is a "spark" that won't be taken down.


Uh.

If you're talking Normal mode raiding only, that can maybe be bought - it'd still be almost always wrong as a generalisation, e.g., if you're a 25-man Normal guild shooting for a first kill, losing a person is going to mean that Spark hits earlier as a pretty universal rule (not never hits, because that's assuming raiders are just stupid). When it comes to Heroics, hell no.

Anyway, from my perspective, the reason this won't do a damn thing on the whole 25-man raid thing is that it really just does what already exists anyway - allows 25-man to have a temporary "higher average ilvl among raiders" in compensation for "harder tuned stuff" during the early progression while 10-man eventually "catches up" once you've had enough weeks for RNG to smooth down.

Kinda makes me wish we didn't have CS, and they would just leave us with a buffed version of HotR... like in the old days of 969

Say what you want about 969... boring, easy, et al, but at least it was the very model of efficiency =P


Pretend AS is the buffed version of HotR.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:41 pm

'Cept back then we also had AS. :roll:
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:42 pm

Klaudandus wrote:'Cept back then we also had AS. :roll:


buffed version of HotR.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:43 pm

Darielle wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:'Cept back then we also had AS. :roll:


buffed version of HotR.


. --> you
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Gab » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:10 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Honestly trying to claim one format is more "real" than another is a horse that's been beaten to death, they're just different, with some encounters easier in one format than the other.


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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:19 pm

Worldie wrote:For me 10 men is "the raid size for casual and friendly gameplay", it will never be real raiding :P


Well, thanks for telling me that my raiding experiences weren't real raiding. That's awesome. :roll:
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:25 pm

You could always say that 25-mans are epeens-measuring/waving festivals more than true raiding, but that would not be fair towards the 25man raiders that have never really treated 10mans (or the people that raid them) with disdain or contempt...

I agree with Gab and Rhiannon... the horse has been beaten to death on this its but a pulp now...
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