patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:45 pm

Nooska wrote:I have not, however offered any solutiosn, though HW doing X damage to each target (up to 10 - if we want to be reasonable with the aoe cap) would be a good place to start. Still would be "beat" by DKs, since diseases are singletarget damage that just gets applied to everything via pestilence/roiling blood.

I dislike the idea of bossting Prism, simply because its a talent that all specs has access to - also its a level 90 talent, where as roiling blood, for comparison, is a level 15 talent.

HW, HotR or Cons are the places to look for a aoe threat boost for Prot paladins - conc is fairly powerful as is (just not very snap, and not good against snap), so I wouldn't look there. HotR hits like a wet noodle, but any buff to that would necessitate a buff to CS as well or CS goes out the window for single target, so we are left with looking at HW.


This is basically my opinion on the matter. We're fine in sustained AoE damage, but in terms of "snap" damage we trail most other tanks, even before the Vengeance issue is addressed. And the problem is primarily that Cons is a huge portion of our AoE damage, but it applies that damage very slowly.

I don't care for the "just spec prism" argument because while Prism is an excellent snap aggro ability, it's also sort of stupid to have to constantly respec after and before every boss just to be reasonably competent on trash. That's really not what they had in mind with the new talent system. The ideal is that our snap aggro is a little more comparable to other classes baseline (though still lower, IMO, to compensate for the fact that you could have Prism - just not as low as it is now).

Holy Wrath losing the meteor effect would definitely accomplish that. I think that doing so would probably be too large of a buff to our AoE DPS in the absence of other nerfs though. If it were up to me, Holy Wrath would lose the meteor effect and Consecration AP scaling would be nerfed to keep our overall AoE damage fairly constant.

That still makes HW>Cons the priority for both single-target and AoE, however. A better solution might be that Holy Wrath gets re-worked to do full damage to the primary target and half damage to all other targets. That would allow the tuning knobs to make a single HW cast higher damage than Cons in single-target situations but lower damage in multi-target situations (Cons might do 75% of HW's single-target damage, such that the crossover is 2 targets).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:02 pm

theckhd wrote: A better solution might be that Holy Wrath gets re-worked to do full damage to the primary target and half damage to all other targets. That would allow the tuning knobs to make a single HW cast higher damage than Cons in single-target situations but lower damage in multi-target situations (Cons might do 75% of HW's single-target damage, such that the crossover is 2 targets).


Yes plz!
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:37 am

theckhd wrote:A better solution might be that Holy Wrath gets re-worked to do full damage to the primary target and half damage to all other targets. That would allow the tuning knobs to make a single HW cast higher damage than Cons in single-target situations but lower damage in multi-target situations (Cons might do 75% of HW's single-target damage, such that the crossover is 2 targets).


Wouldn't that make it almost identical to HotR?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:40 am

Newsom wrote:
theckhd wrote:A better solution might be that Holy Wrath gets re-worked to do full damage to the primary target and half damage to all other targets. That would allow the tuning knobs to make a single HW cast higher damage than Cons in single-target situations but lower damage in multi-target situations (Cons might do 75% of HW's single-target damage, such that the crossover is 2 targets).


Wouldn't that make it almost identical to HotR?

How about the other way around? High damage to secondary targets, lower damage to primary target.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:05 am

I like that for AoE, but that would make it a sort of trap ability when tanking something with an dadd, where you would have to switch to the add for HW to "do it right" (unless the add was to be focused down first). If you have an aoe situation where you need to focus one add down, it would also be a bit of a trap, as the right thing to do as a tank is to have the focused target as your main target to make sure it doesn't slip away from the focusing - but you would be doing more damage to the other targets with one of your abilities.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:43 am

I like that for AoE, but that would make it a sort of trap ability when tanking something with an dadd, where you would have to switch to the add for HW to "do it right" (unless the add was to be focused down first). If you have an aoe situation where you need to focus one add down, it would also be a bit of a trap, as the right thing to do as a tank is to have the focused target as your main target to make sure it doesn't slip away from the focusing - but you would be doing more damage to the other targets with one of your abilities.


In fact, didn't some version of old cleaving HotR or something have that kind of exact silly interaction for a short while? It gets a vague recollection that it's happened before, and they finally realised that it was silly.

Plus the point of the high damage primary is to ensure it's above Cons. If it was inverted, 50% of a HW would have to try and beat Cons, at which point HW would outdo Cons for both single target and aoe, and that's ... odd.

Frankly, if the entire point is to get more into one button, frontloading more onto both CS and HotR equally and then hitting down, say, ShoR's, or even Consecration's damage makes much more sense.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:48 am

Only thing I can think of re: HotR is that the bounce used to only work on targets in front of you.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:52 am

Memory stirring more tells me it had to with level. There was something where we (or another class I guess, seeing as I've played several over time) wanted to hit an add or a critter if we could because it had a smaller miss chance? Maybe it was just when they changed HotR to be all or nothing on the primary target, so we wanted to hit an add when we weren't capping Hit/Exp, so that we had less misses (which I guess technically still applies, except we actually value Hit/Exp)?

The more I think about it, that might be what I'm thinking of.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:39 am

How about changing consec's damage profile? Instead of having 9 equal damage ticks, with the first tick dealing damage after a second, have 10 ticks, with the first tick applying instantly (shadow word:pain style), the first 3 ticks each doing 15% of the total damage, and the remaining 7 each doing 7.86% of the total damage.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:02 am

That would just lead to "recast Cons after 3 ticks" or stuff like that - more mana intensive, but higher damage output.
Also, the issue remains for any add that come sin after the first tick (since there sitll isn't any snap aggro ability for paladins, unlike other tanks)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:21 am

How about saying: The first tick of Consecrate deals triple damage, after then the normal amount of damage is dealt. This cannot occur more often than every 20 seconds.

So a mob that enters the Consecrate AoE takes a big chunk of damage, and then the normal amount from then onwards. The cooldown on the extra damage would stop people moving the mobs around to get extra damage.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:52 am

I'd say the simpler the solution, the easier to implement, so I am going with Theck's
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:23 am

Nooska wrote:That would just lead to "recast Cons after 3 ticks" or stuff like that - more mana intensive, but higher damage output.
Also, the issue remains for any add that come sin after the first tick (since there sitll isn't any snap aggro ability for paladins, unlike other tanks)


How are you going to recast it when it has a cooldown? oO

And it's not like paladins are short of single target pickups for individual adds that appear later.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:35 am

Kinda makes me wish we didn't have CS, and they would just leave us with a buffed version of HotR... like in the old days of 969

Say what you want about 969... boring, easy, et al, but at least it was the very model of efficiency =P
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:42 am

This new Thunderforged shit makes me wonder wtf they are thinking. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:45 am

Worldie wrote:This new Thunderforged shit makes me wonder wtf they are thinking. It's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
http://www.wowhead.com/news=210196/thun ... e-ptr-soon

Wow.....
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:47 am

Reasoning makes sense, but everybody hates everything, so what are you gonna do.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenris » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:51 am

Flex wrote:Reasoning makes sense, but everybody hates everything, so what are you gonna do.

Reasoning makes sense.

The way they ended with that reasoning makes not.


Balancing 25 and 10 based on,in the end,drop-luck?Yeah...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:53 am

It's still not going to stop the decline of 25 man raiding.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:06 am

So they tried out valor having continued use to increase your items, now they're trying out rare-drop higher ilevel loot. Guess this is the "lets experiment with new ways to extend content and keep people raiding" expansion. Blizzard don't seem to like that much of the patch cycle tends to be high activity when a new tier/season launches then a decline until the next comes out.

This system is different, and I'm not sure there's anything wrong with the idea. Lets see how it feels in practice.

Regarding 10/25: Any benefit that is theoretical and not immediately recognisable when playing is going to have a minimal effect on which size raid people choose. Having a "small chance" for slightly better loot isn't something that will instantly make people feel that organising a 25 is worth the effort, though it might bring some players across.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:09 am

Fact is simple, the only way to revitalize 25 men is to give them again better loots. Make Thunderforged only drop in 25, then we'd be talking.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:10 am

I don't mind the Thunderforged, and it may explain why they removed the upgrade dude, but it still won't solve the 25 man thing. It just makes farm content more relevant, provides for more loot drama, and theoretically will slowly boost progression.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:11 am

Worldie wrote:Fact is simple, the only way to revitalize 25 men is to give them again better loots. Make Thunderforged only drop in 25, then we'd be talking.

I don't think getting more players back into 25 player is really worth screwing over the 10-man segment of the player base.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:12 am

Worldie wrote:Fact is simple, the only way to revitalize 25 men is to give them again better loots. Make Thunderforged only drop in 25, then we'd be talking.


And thus make 25 man the mandatory raid size, if the drop rate isn't minuscule.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:13 am

KysenMurrin wrote:
Worldie wrote:Fact is simple, the only way to revitalize 25 men is to give them again better loots. Make Thunderforged only drop in 25, then we'd be talking.

I don't think getting more players back into 25 player is really worth screwing over the 10-man segment of the player base.


But to Worldie that isn't real raiding anyway... :roll:
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