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patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:30 pm

HotR barely does any damage. I could prolly generate more aggro by sneezing on the monitor..

Yeah yeah, I'm going for hyperboles... sue me.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:44 pm

Klaudandus wrote:HotR barely does any damage. I could prolly generate more aggro by sneezing on the monitor..

Yeah yeah, I'm going for hyperboles... sue me.


I would, but I'm not American. :P.

Where you think HotR fills on the sneeze-kegstomp ratio isn't really relevant to what its purpose is. Or where Paladins fit on AoE snap, really. Keg Smash is silly, but if you're losing out to, say, a Warrior, he just charged in first and soaked the first few hits *shrug*. Not that it should even really matter who "wins" trash.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:56 pm

Ok. Then leave us at is, but then go ahead a bring all the other tanks to our level!

I remember GC claiming how prot pally dps was gonna be the standard, but we're still being beaten by DKs and Monks... and I have yet to see a note on how keg smash is gonna be nerfed/adjusted...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:19 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Then I realize he keeps not talking about our snap aoe issues... and I lose faith.


It might be helpful if you cry more about it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:03 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Ok. Then leave us at is, but then go ahead a bring all the other tanks to our level!

I remember GC claiming how prot pally dps was gonna be the standard, but we're still being beaten by DKs and Monks... and I have yet to see a note on how keg smash is gonna be nerfed/adjusted...


Keg Smash was already adjusted. Paladins are not being beaten by any class by any numbers being measured on any relevant fight, so I don't know what you're going on about now.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:04 am

I'm gonna stand along-ish Klaud. Right now, we're fine on most bosses. Honestly, I actually feel a bit OP in the toolkit department right now.
It's mostly a QoL issue, but the problem is mostly with trash, more specifically the "big wave of tiny things" trash.

Case in point: MGV with myself at ~485 with Nooska on his DK fresh from heroics at barely 470. The three packs of doggies before Stone Guard. Even though it's not difficult content, it serves as a decent example of what happens in large pack situations - we hit the pack at roughly the same time. I open up with HotR -> HW -> Cons -> HotR. He opens up with D&D -> diseases -> Pestilence. We're 8 seconds later, and he's got the entire pack while I'm left gasping for a single mob to get some vengeance. He's covered for the next 30 seconds, and can even add up some BB to secure the pack. I'm waiting for some more buttons to push because everything AoE-related is on CD. I could use AS, but it will only help on 3 of the 10 targets available. J is even worse for that.

Holy Prism has been mentionned a bit, and it IS a great solution (*grumbles about LH's zero aggro*) IF you accept to either switch talents between trash and bosses, OR you accept a sub-par talent for bosses.

I'll be honest, I haven't tested the new Cons, so I can't judge how far Klaud's "not enough" comment is accurate. But on live, it can get annoying to plan around.

Onto the solutions! Cons is a good start, but it works mostly on the longer term, once the fight is in full swing. AS covers our 2-3 target needs, so what we need is a tool to get snap aggro on 4+ targets while cons starts ticking. I can "get" why HW would be a good candidate, but I can also "get" why they're so careful about not buffing HW and avoid us doing stupid damage with it like in ICC.

Which leads me to this: Do AoE still suffer for decresed damage above 10 targets? Because the advocates of removing the meteor from HW would be onto something, I think.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:30 am

Even if the AoE cap is still in place, Death Knight AoE threat comes from spreading diseases, which count as single-target damage on each mob and thus ignore the AoE cap rule. Not sure how Keg Smash works.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:37 am

Keg SMash is a true AoE, hiting anything in a 8y radius. I'm not overly worried in the DK's AoE, more in our lack of such. If we get outdistanced on 10+ pulls, well, they don't happen THAT often now do they?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:53 am

In my experience whoever goes into a trash pack and gets vengeance first gets to keep threat on the mobs - it has nothing to do with the class of the tank.

I honestly can't see how paladins need a snap aggro buff. We also have Holy Prism - it's awesome on trash, 5 mans or bosses with add waves (for which this tier there haven't really been any).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:10 am

Sagara wrote:I'm gonna stand along-ish Klaud. Right now, we're fine on most bosses. Honestly, I actually feel a bit OP in the toolkit department right now.
It's mostly a QoL issue.


This is basically what I've been harking about. Merely a QoL issue. If it sounds like QQ is because blizz has fixed QoL issues with other classes/specs before so I feel "why not us?"

Sagara wrote:I'll be honest, I haven't tested the new Cons, so I can't judge how far Klaud's "not enough" comment is accurate. But on live, it can get annoying to plan around


Lets say, my AP is currently 21390. With the current version of Cons, it does about 2028 dpt at zero vengeance, where as the 5.2 version does 2625. Over 9 secs, the new version of consecration does about 5k more damage for the duration of the spell -- but it scales much worse... to the point that once your Total AP (Base + Vengeance) is at 70K, the old version is much better.

It's better at zero vengeance, I'll give that, but still feels lackluster even on the PTR...

Edit: Originally said 5k dps, that was wrong.
Last edited by Klaudandus on Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Pruke » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:16 am

Last night in MV Normal I took my ilvl 371 geared monk in to tank. I could fairly easily out agro my co-tank who is ilvl 393. It was so bad he was telling me man, if you were always tanking on your monk I would be pissed. Understand my main is a blood dk, and it usually boils down to who gets to the pack first.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nooska » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:28 pm

To be entirely fair, I never uses D&D on the trash, just Outbreak for diseases and Blood Boil for spreading it (talented) - giving Sagara a headstart of 5 seconds I tore everything off on the 3 GCD for the second BB exxcept his main target - which I would tear off as well if it was also my main target.

Since druids can do the same with thrash (or swipe or.. been a while since I tanked on my druid, like not since sunwell was current) and monks can do it with keg smash - I haven't checked on warriors - I'd say paladin AoE threat is lacking.

I have not, however offered any solutiosn, though HW doing X damage to each target (up to 10 - if we want to be reasonable with the aoe cap) would be a good place to start. Still would be "beat" by DKs, since diseases are singletarget damage that just gets applied to everything via pestilence/roiling blood.

I dislike the idea of bossting Prism, simply because its a talent that all specs has access to - also its a level 90 talent, where as roiling blood, for comparison, is a level 15 talent.

HW, HotR or Cons are the places to look for a aoe threat boost for Prot paladins - conc is fairly powerful as is (just not very snap, and not good against snap), so I wouldn't look there. HotR hits like a wet noodle, but any buff to that would necessitate a buff to CS as well or CS goes out the window for single target, so we are left with looking at HW.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenris » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:16 pm

SoR leaves a dot on anything it hits,dealing "whatisneeded" damage over "whatever" seconds (or just have it do more (MOOOOORE) direct damage)

Prot only

Not like doing more dps than SoV on single target will ever be a problem as long as SoI+Battle healer are around...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby bldavis » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:20 pm

Monks - Keg Smash
DKs - BB/D&D (and aoe DG, much fun is had in those cases, D&D, AOEDG, Outbreak, BB)
Bears - swipe and thrash
Warriors - t-clap, cleave and w/e aoe ability they choose via talents (if they want to use it on trash, shockwave is 20 sec cd, dragon roar is 1 min)

pallies - HW, Cons and HotR
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:34 pm

one thing you forgot is monks' http://www.wowhead.com/spell=115180/dizzying-haze , even if it doesnt do any damage.
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