patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Holyblaze » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:56 am

Newsom wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:The average player levelling in BGs doesn't give a damn about getting their stats up, and will be way below twinks in capability.


So? The same is true for max level battlegrounds.



This. Every damn bit of this! I love that lvl diffrance. I have leveled 5 toons in BGs (always the 1st one is questing and some dungeons)so I have 6 lvl 90's atm. While to start (lvl 85 this Xpac) is a BITCH cause a lvl 89 will fuk my world up in 3-4 GCD's, but that is only a temp thing cause I will be a higher lvl in a day and then its my turn! I have WAY more PvP experiance than most of the horde I fight in a BG (gonna be the exception here and there without question) and I get a GREAT satisfaction when I smoke dat Horde ass 2 lvls lower than they are. I'll grant you that I have the best gears and chants gold can buy, but 2-3 lvl gap is still huge! So amped! Ima be GOD LIKE once my lvl 85 pimped toons get to go lvl 89 in an instant! GAH! Drooling!
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Shoju » Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:21 pm

Newsom wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:The average player levelling in BGs doesn't give a damn about getting their stats up, and will be way below twinks in capability.


So? The same is true for max level battlegrounds.


And that is my point. They are going to great lengths to equalize BG's. With just normal questing gear, and heirlooms, alts will be on the same footing gear wise as twinked characters.

Sure, you'll find some people that have perfected their twinks, and they will be in BiS gear, and BiS enchants, but that is no different from End Game. When you go into a BG at max level, you can, and will, run into people who are in full on BiS gear. That's the nature of the game. if you don't put as much time into the gear, I don't see how it gives you the right to complain. I could understand it wholly when BG's were 10 levels of people, and Twinks had the time and resources to make sure that they were in the absolute best gear they could find.

But now? Every BG will be "similar" to end game. Everyone will be operating at the same level, which, with the way Heirlooms work, should put those people at the same stats on their gear, in some cases better. There will be no more big mean 19 twink hunters 1 shotting people from range because of the level difference. They are going to great lengths to balance out PvP at every level of the game. I don't see why they would need to continue to keep players separate.

And who doesn't enchant heirlooms? I mean.... Every heirloom I own is still sitting in my bank, with the best enchant that I could put on it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fenris » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:00 pm

I read GC tweeting answers to people asking for the comeback of SoC and i facepalm a bit

Then,i realize that means someone would want SoC back,and i facepalm a lot
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:08 pm

Then I realize he keeps not talking about our snap aoe issues... and I lose faith.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:15 pm

What snap aoe issues?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:25 pm

How we easily lose mobs to a keg smash?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:47 pm

That's not our issue. That's Kegbliterate being stupidly designed, at best (It's not really "OP" anymore)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:50 pm

Then how bout other tanks get something similar?

Our dps/threat is very slow ramping vis a vis other tanks. Is it really bad to ask for something to help us with that? Yeah... cons should help, but its hardly enough.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:51 pm

Then how bout other tanks get something similar?

Our dps/threat is very slow ramping vis a vis other tanks.


No, it's not. It's only Monks that can do something on their level of silly, and Monks do it to everyone. You're asking for some kind of "fix" that really comes down to "The tank that runs in and gets hit first wins on unimportant trash", which would most likely either buff us in other ways (not good) or nerf us (even worse).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:01 pm

It really seems you're the only one that seems to be ok the way paladins are. Whereas even guys like Nooska and Theck have mentioned we really could use better snap aoe threat, and that it could be fixed by ways of changing how Holy Wrath works (removal of the meteor mechanic as an example)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:02 pm

Given how we function, if they did go around playing with HW, they'd be more likely to make it a single target attack than an aoe, so if you're concerned about "aoe snap", it's probably best not to bring it up.

So yes, I do think HW could be improved, but not in the way you're talking.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:04 pm

Holy Wrath barely works as AoE snap...

I'm sorry, but our AoE is terrible... I dont see how the hell blizz would consider making it single target as a baseline, considering prot is the only spec that has access to it.

There is a glyph to make HW a single target ability, but why the hell would I want that?

HotR hits like wet noodles. Cons takes forever to ramp up. SoR is not really that great...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:08 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Holy Wrath barely works as AoE snap...


Exactly.
The only reason to try to press it in "aoe snap" is because it does something. It's not good aoe, it just does aoe damage because flavour. It'd be extremely odd for them to decide to rework it and decide it needs to be serve as a better aoe button.

There is a glyph to make HW a single target ability, but why the hell would I want that?


If you wanted to do damage to the one target you want to be damaging instead of having the damage you're doing to that one target be reduced because other targets are nearby.

Examples:
Lei Shi adds, Protectors.

HotR hits like wet noodles. Cons takes forever to ramp up. SoR is not really that great...


If you're that concerned about snap AoE to the point that you think Blizzard should be buffing buttons, your go-to is going to be Prism.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:14 pm

The cases are few and far between... so I see how that glyph would be ok in those situations are ok.

Just dont get your idea on why blizz would make it single target baseline instead --- might as well just call it exorcism.

Also, like I said, Theck and Nooska have mentioned Holy Wrath losing its meteor mechanic being a viable solution to our low aoe/slow threat ramp up -- I'd say that they know what they're talking about, even if you don't agree with it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:25 pm

Just dont get your idea on why blizz would make it single target baseline instead --- might as well just call it exorcism.


That touches on just why they would most likely make it single target.

One of the big things they did was separate out the identities of HW and Exo. Ret got Exo, and Exo being more meaningful, losing HW.

They kept us with HW because HW serves as our thing. Especially now that it's been buffed and stronger than it was when Pandaria went live, it's a pretty core single target spell, and its only "flavour" aspect is the Meteor, which does nothing on single targets and doesn't really inflate damage on aoe either. As far as core AoE spells go, it's not really relevant in that capacity except that it does spread out damage instead of, say, what would be Judgment or whatever doing more damage anyway as well as generating HP, just to one target. Meanwhile, we have plenty of AoE buttons as it is, between HotR, Consecrate, potential level 90 talents based on choice, Cleaving etc.

IOW: It has a purpose in single target, and no real purpose for AoE. It seems silly to think that they would rework it in a way that weakens its purpose for single target (especially since keeping it there helps keep Consecrate down on single target by keeping HW above Cons, and they've had a hardon for THAT concept for a while), and make it yet another AoE button when we're swimming in them as it is. Far more likely, they'll make it single target, then add some odd flavour to it, or they'll keep it single target and count on stuff like the HW glyph (the stun) to provide sufficient "flavour".
Last edited by Darielle on Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:30 pm

HotR barely does any damage. I could prolly generate more aggro by sneezing on the monitor..

Yeah yeah, I'm going for hyperboles... sue me.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:44 pm

Klaudandus wrote:HotR barely does any damage. I could prolly generate more aggro by sneezing on the monitor..

Yeah yeah, I'm going for hyperboles... sue me.


I would, but I'm not American. :P.

Where you think HotR fills on the sneeze-kegstomp ratio isn't really relevant to what its purpose is. Or where Paladins fit on AoE snap, really. Keg Smash is silly, but if you're losing out to, say, a Warrior, he just charged in first and soaked the first few hits *shrug*. Not that it should even really matter who "wins" trash.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:56 pm

Ok. Then leave us at is, but then go ahead a bring all the other tanks to our level!

I remember GC claiming how prot pally dps was gonna be the standard, but we're still being beaten by DKs and Monks... and I have yet to see a note on how keg smash is gonna be nerfed/adjusted...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:19 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Then I realize he keeps not talking about our snap aoe issues... and I lose faith.


It might be helpful if you cry more about it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Darielle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:03 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Ok. Then leave us at is, but then go ahead a bring all the other tanks to our level!

I remember GC claiming how prot pally dps was gonna be the standard, but we're still being beaten by DKs and Monks... and I have yet to see a note on how keg smash is gonna be nerfed/adjusted...


Keg Smash was already adjusted. Paladins are not being beaten by any class by any numbers being measured on any relevant fight, so I don't know what you're going on about now.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:04 am

I'm gonna stand along-ish Klaud. Right now, we're fine on most bosses. Honestly, I actually feel a bit OP in the toolkit department right now.
It's mostly a QoL issue, but the problem is mostly with trash, more specifically the "big wave of tiny things" trash.

Case in point: MGV with myself at ~485 with Nooska on his DK fresh from heroics at barely 470. The three packs of doggies before Stone Guard. Even though it's not difficult content, it serves as a decent example of what happens in large pack situations - we hit the pack at roughly the same time. I open up with HotR -> HW -> Cons -> HotR. He opens up with D&D -> diseases -> Pestilence. We're 8 seconds later, and he's got the entire pack while I'm left gasping for a single mob to get some vengeance. He's covered for the next 30 seconds, and can even add up some BB to secure the pack. I'm waiting for some more buttons to push because everything AoE-related is on CD. I could use AS, but it will only help on 3 of the 10 targets available. J is even worse for that.

Holy Prism has been mentionned a bit, and it IS a great solution (*grumbles about LH's zero aggro*) IF you accept to either switch talents between trash and bosses, OR you accept a sub-par talent for bosses.

I'll be honest, I haven't tested the new Cons, so I can't judge how far Klaud's "not enough" comment is accurate. But on live, it can get annoying to plan around.

Onto the solutions! Cons is a good start, but it works mostly on the longer term, once the fight is in full swing. AS covers our 2-3 target needs, so what we need is a tool to get snap aggro on 4+ targets while cons starts ticking. I can "get" why HW would be a good candidate, but I can also "get" why they're so careful about not buffing HW and avoid us doing stupid damage with it like in ICC.

Which leads me to this: Do AoE still suffer for decresed damage above 10 targets? Because the advocates of removing the meteor from HW would be onto something, I think.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Fetzie » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:30 am

Even if the AoE cap is still in place, Death Knight AoE threat comes from spreading diseases, which count as single-target damage on each mob and thus ignore the AoE cap rule. Not sure how Keg Smash works.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Sagara » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:37 am

Keg SMash is a true AoE, hiting anything in a 8y radius. I'm not overly worried in the DK's AoE, more in our lack of such. If we get outdistanced on 10+ pulls, well, they don't happen THAT often now do they?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Newsom » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:53 am

In my experience whoever goes into a trash pack and gets vengeance first gets to keep threat on the mobs - it has nothing to do with the class of the tank.

I honestly can't see how paladins need a snap aggro buff. We also have Holy Prism - it's awesome on trash, 5 mans or bosses with add waves (for which this tier there haven't really been any).
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:10 am

Sagara wrote:I'm gonna stand along-ish Klaud. Right now, we're fine on most bosses. Honestly, I actually feel a bit OP in the toolkit department right now.
It's mostly a QoL issue.


This is basically what I've been harking about. Merely a QoL issue. If it sounds like QQ is because blizz has fixed QoL issues with other classes/specs before so I feel "why not us?"

Sagara wrote:I'll be honest, I haven't tested the new Cons, so I can't judge how far Klaud's "not enough" comment is accurate. But on live, it can get annoying to plan around


Lets say, my AP is currently 21390. With the current version of Cons, it does about 2028 dpt at zero vengeance, where as the 5.2 version does 2625. Over 9 secs, the new version of consecration does about 5k more damage for the duration of the spell -- but it scales much worse... to the point that once your Total AP (Base + Vengeance) is at 70K, the old version is much better.

It's better at zero vengeance, I'll give that, but still feels lackluster even on the PTR...

Edit: Originally said 5k dps, that was wrong.
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