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Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:01 pm
by Skye1013
Pretty sure it's 20 HK without dying, but I haven't looked at it in awhile... so things might have changed.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:40 pm
by Fetzie
http://www.wowhead.com/achievement=231

20 Killing Blows without dying.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:08 am
by Shoju
KysenMurrin wrote:Patch note doesn't say the Scenario/dungeon rep bonus only applies to Pandaria reputations. Possibly just an oversight, but interesting if not.

Players in low level battlegrounds will have their effective level raised to the maximum level allowed in that battleground bracket. Players' base stats and spells are scaled accordingly and are treated as the same level when determining hits, misses, and critical effect chance.

Level scaling in battlegrounds - interesting change. No longer any issue of lowbies versus higher levels. Though it means the very fun (and horrendously unbalanced) level 10 pvp will be gone.


I'm wondering, if now they will think about reintegrating battlegrounds between "Twink" and Normal. Now, the only advantage/disadvantage is gearing, one of the biggest things that they mentioned.

Gearing, seems to be sort of a joke anymore. You have

Heirloom
Head
Cloak
Shoulders
Chest
Legs
Trinkets (Including a PVP Trinket)
Weapons

In 5.2 You get new shields, and an off hand as well.

The playing field is pretty open at this point.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:52 am
by Worldie
They can't really let twinks and normal players play toghether. A twink will have up to 2-3x the HP of a normally geared person and does easily oneshot a normally geared player.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:54 am
by KysenMurrin
I think there's still an issue of fun regarding the seperation of the twink bracket, even if the level differences are gone. Twinks are expected to be very experienced and have the best gear they can get at that level (along with full enchants and buff food), whereas most levelling in BGs will be in either heirlooms (most likely unenchanted; the gear's good but not automatically best) or in quest/vendor gear (for new players). Twinks would still tend to outclass random levelling players, leading to frustrating experiences in the BGs.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:08 am
by Shoju
Worldie wrote:They can't really let twinks and normal players play toghether. A twink will have up to 2-3x the HP of a normally geared person and does easily oneshot a normally geared player.


2-3HP only if the "normal person" isn't wearing heirlooms.

This was my "project" when I stopped playing.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/t ... a/advanced

I'm wearing heirloms, and dungeon drops.

Compare him to my original twink on my old server
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/b ... e/advanced

My heirloom toting paladin outhealths my twink hunter by 400+ HP. Heirlooms seriously leveled the playing field.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:32 am
by KysenMurrin
Different level, different class, different race, stamina enchants...

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:21 am
by Shoju
KysenMurrin wrote:Different level, different class, different race, stamina enchants...


Same Level. Both are 19.
Different Class. Paladin V Hunter
Different Race. The Tauren HP difference isn't that noticable.

16 difference in Stamina from enchants.

So let's compare an Heirloom Hunter with no enchants against my BIS No Heirloom Hunter.

This is completely unenchanted.

The No Heirloom Twink Hunter has

Less Agility (7)
Less Stamina (1 - And that's with the hunter sporting a ring that hasn't been around for 2 expacs now)
Less Armor (62 - that's 10%)
Less Resilience (6 - not sure how much that matters at that low of a level)
Less Haste (12 - 5.67% - that's more than negligible.)
Less Hit (20 - 11.82% - That's hit capped)
Less DPS (1.6 stated)
Lower Ranged Min Damage
Lower Ranged Max Damage

more Crit (by 1 = .34% at 19)
more Spirit (lol)
More Strength (lol)

And I didn't even use the same "non heirloom pieces" Giving the heirloomed player the pieces that would come more "naturally" from leveling. Quest Rewards, a few common Dungeon Drops.

The difference, comes down to the enchants. And.. Really. In a game where enchants are part of the game play, who would be surprised by that? Now, I could mix and match to create the best set, but that isn't the point. The point is, Heirlooms have leveled the playing field. Not only have they leveled it, they have skewed it in favor of using them.

I used the gear as stated off my hunter, removing enchants. I used as much heirloom gear as I could on the other (without the ring, since that's not a "gimmee") Heirloom gear at low levels took away the "Gear" advantage that Twinks had. Now, it's just a few archaic pieces that you wont run into that often, and enchants, which are readily available to everyone. They removed the loophole on the Leg Armor Kits, and the Head Enchants (the 8 stamina enchant on his head gives +0 until level 55).

This new level change, will take away the level difference, meaning you wont get bonuses for attacking a lower level foe. So really, it comes down to:

Are you wearing heirlooms, or not?
Did you enchant your gear?

What's the difference between that and max level pvp? Gear, Enchants, and Skill.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:33 am
by KysenMurrin
Sorry, saw a 20 on the Tauren and forgot it was the ilevel not character level. Was just a quick glance over.

Okay, so heirlooms make your alts closer to the twinks in stats, although I doubt a lot of people take the effort to fully enchant them like twinks would. When I was levelling my Paladin entirely in BGs, with no heirlooms but taking advantage of all the pvp vendor gear I could get, using buff food, and enchanting a lot, I was frequently far ahead of the other players I got grouped with in health and other stats.

The average player levelling in BGs doesn't give a damn about getting their stats up, and will be way below twinks in capability.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:41 am
by Newsom
KysenMurrin wrote:The average player levelling in BGs doesn't give a damn about getting their stats up, and will be way below twinks in capability.


So? The same is true for max level battlegrounds.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:56 am
by Holyblaze
Newsom wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:The average player levelling in BGs doesn't give a damn about getting their stats up, and will be way below twinks in capability.


So? The same is true for max level battlegrounds.



This. Every damn bit of this! I love that lvl diffrance. I have leveled 5 toons in BGs (always the 1st one is questing and some dungeons)so I have 6 lvl 90's atm. While to start (lvl 85 this Xpac) is a BITCH cause a lvl 89 will fuk my world up in 3-4 GCD's, but that is only a temp thing cause I will be a higher lvl in a day and then its my turn! I have WAY more PvP experiance than most of the horde I fight in a BG (gonna be the exception here and there without question) and I get a GREAT satisfaction when I smoke dat Horde ass 2 lvls lower than they are. I'll grant you that I have the best gears and chants gold can buy, but 2-3 lvl gap is still huge! So amped! Ima be GOD LIKE once my lvl 85 pimped toons get to go lvl 89 in an instant! GAH! Drooling!

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:21 pm
by Shoju
Newsom wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:The average player levelling in BGs doesn't give a damn about getting their stats up, and will be way below twinks in capability.


So? The same is true for max level battlegrounds.


And that is my point. They are going to great lengths to equalize BG's. With just normal questing gear, and heirlooms, alts will be on the same footing gear wise as twinked characters.

Sure, you'll find some people that have perfected their twinks, and they will be in BiS gear, and BiS enchants, but that is no different from End Game. When you go into a BG at max level, you can, and will, run into people who are in full on BiS gear. That's the nature of the game. if you don't put as much time into the gear, I don't see how it gives you the right to complain. I could understand it wholly when BG's were 10 levels of people, and Twinks had the time and resources to make sure that they were in the absolute best gear they could find.

But now? Every BG will be "similar" to end game. Everyone will be operating at the same level, which, with the way Heirlooms work, should put those people at the same stats on their gear, in some cases better. There will be no more big mean 19 twink hunters 1 shotting people from range because of the level difference. They are going to great lengths to balance out PvP at every level of the game. I don't see why they would need to continue to keep players separate.

And who doesn't enchant heirlooms? I mean.... Every heirloom I own is still sitting in my bank, with the best enchant that I could put on it.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:00 pm
by Fenris
I read GC tweeting answers to people asking for the comeback of SoC and i facepalm a bit

Then,i realize that means someone would want SoC back,and i facepalm a lot

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:08 pm
by Klaudandus
Then I realize he keeps not talking about our snap aoe issues... and I lose faith.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:15 pm
by Darielle
What snap aoe issues?

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:25 pm
by Klaudandus
How we easily lose mobs to a keg smash?

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:47 pm
by Darielle
That's not our issue. That's Kegbliterate being stupidly designed, at best (It's not really "OP" anymore)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:50 pm
by Klaudandus
Then how bout other tanks get something similar?

Our dps/threat is very slow ramping vis a vis other tanks. Is it really bad to ask for something to help us with that? Yeah... cons should help, but its hardly enough.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:51 pm
by Darielle
Then how bout other tanks get something similar?

Our dps/threat is very slow ramping vis a vis other tanks.


No, it's not. It's only Monks that can do something on their level of silly, and Monks do it to everyone. You're asking for some kind of "fix" that really comes down to "The tank that runs in and gets hit first wins on unimportant trash", which would most likely either buff us in other ways (not good) or nerf us (even worse).

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:01 pm
by Klaudandus
It really seems you're the only one that seems to be ok the way paladins are. Whereas even guys like Nooska and Theck have mentioned we really could use better snap aoe threat, and that it could be fixed by ways of changing how Holy Wrath works (removal of the meteor mechanic as an example)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:02 pm
by Darielle
Given how we function, if they did go around playing with HW, they'd be more likely to make it a single target attack than an aoe, so if you're concerned about "aoe snap", it's probably best not to bring it up.

So yes, I do think HW could be improved, but not in the way you're talking.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:04 pm
by Klaudandus
Holy Wrath barely works as AoE snap...

I'm sorry, but our AoE is terrible... I dont see how the hell blizz would consider making it single target as a baseline, considering prot is the only spec that has access to it.

There is a glyph to make HW a single target ability, but why the hell would I want that?

HotR hits like wet noodles. Cons takes forever to ramp up. SoR is not really that great...

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:08 pm
by Darielle
Klaudandus wrote:Holy Wrath barely works as AoE snap...


Exactly.
The only reason to try to press it in "aoe snap" is because it does something. It's not good aoe, it just does aoe damage because flavour. It'd be extremely odd for them to decide to rework it and decide it needs to be serve as a better aoe button.

There is a glyph to make HW a single target ability, but why the hell would I want that?


If you wanted to do damage to the one target you want to be damaging instead of having the damage you're doing to that one target be reduced because other targets are nearby.

Examples:
Lei Shi adds, Protectors.

HotR hits like wet noodles. Cons takes forever to ramp up. SoR is not really that great...


If you're that concerned about snap AoE to the point that you think Blizzard should be buffing buttons, your go-to is going to be Prism.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:14 pm
by Klaudandus
The cases are few and far between... so I see how that glyph would be ok in those situations are ok.

Just dont get your idea on why blizz would make it single target baseline instead --- might as well just call it exorcism.

Also, like I said, Theck and Nooska have mentioned Holy Wrath losing its meteor mechanic being a viable solution to our low aoe/slow threat ramp up -- I'd say that they know what they're talking about, even if you don't agree with it.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:25 pm
by Darielle
Just dont get your idea on why blizz would make it single target baseline instead --- might as well just call it exorcism.


That touches on just why they would most likely make it single target.

One of the big things they did was separate out the identities of HW and Exo. Ret got Exo, and Exo being more meaningful, losing HW.

They kept us with HW because HW serves as our thing. Especially now that it's been buffed and stronger than it was when Pandaria went live, it's a pretty core single target spell, and its only "flavour" aspect is the Meteor, which does nothing on single targets and doesn't really inflate damage on aoe either. As far as core AoE spells go, it's not really relevant in that capacity except that it does spread out damage instead of, say, what would be Judgment or whatever doing more damage anyway as well as generating HP, just to one target. Meanwhile, we have plenty of AoE buttons as it is, between HotR, Consecrate, potential level 90 talents based on choice, Cleaving etc.

IOW: It has a purpose in single target, and no real purpose for AoE. It seems silly to think that they would rework it in a way that weakens its purpose for single target (especially since keeping it there helps keep Consecrate down on single target by keeping HW above Cons, and they've had a hardon for THAT concept for a while), and make it yet another AoE button when we're swimming in them as it is. Far more likely, they'll make it single target, then add some odd flavour to it, or they'll keep it single target and count on stuff like the HW glyph (the stun) to provide sufficient "flavour".