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Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:21 pm
by Lieris
Teranoid wrote:I don't even understand how someone considers them even a progression path. They're glorified time trials with rewards that do nothing to actually advance your character. There's not even going to be any expansion of them in Mists due to the whole "we can't be bothered to make more dungeons we're too busy coming up with 500 thousand more yawn inducing daily quests because the overwhelming feedback has been 100% positive"


They have their priorities so infuriatingly wrong. We've gone from 1 or 2 non-essential daily hubs an expansion (I am not including those that can skipped with a tabard) to maybe a dozen in MOP with important PVE items and frozen me out of the semi-serious 3 night raiding I enjoyed because some weeks I only have time (or only want) to log on for raids. It's sad that a content patch point release now sometimes just means more dailies.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:25 pm
by Worldie
Tecnically you don't have to do the dailies at all if you raid, as gear from rep is worse than gear from raids.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:29 pm
by Flex
Worldie wrote:Tecnically you don't have to do the dailies at all if you raid, as gear from rep is worse than gear from raids.


This.

The big argument is based around the shifting place of what valor gear should be. From fill in the gap on unlucky drops in the original badge gear stance to almost essential to gearing up in WotLK and Cataclysm to a reward for players who partake in content.

5.2 looks to strike a better balance more along the lines of the original intent. Get valor from killing bosses, use valor to buy gear from the reputation vendor tied to the raid you're doing.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:49 pm
by Lieris
Worldie wrote:Tecnically you don't have to do the dailies at all if you raid, as gear from rep is worse than gear from raids.


It's not just the dailies that would stop me from being able to just login for raids.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:00 pm
by Paxen
I don't care about the rewards from Challenge modes (tbh, I think it's awesome that there aren't any).

I do dislike that they're timed, and I have a hard time finding a group now that I'm not a raider (and haven't been raiding seriously for a year). Even though I dislike the timing aspect of it, I'm still trying to find a group any way I can.

But a proper 5-man progression path would have been even more awesome. Maybe I could even find a 5-man focused guild then.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:04 pm
by Flex
Paxen wrote:I don't care about the rewards from Challenge modes (tbh, I think it's awesome that there aren't any).

I do dislike that they're timed, and I have a hard time finding a group now that I'm not a raider (and haven't been raiding seriously for a year). Even though I dislike the timing aspect of it, I'm still trying to find a group any way I can.

But a proper 5-man progression path would have been even more awesome. Maybe I could even find a 5-man focused guild then.


How else would you have a leaderboard system other than time based?

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:09 pm
by Paxen
Flex wrote:How else would you have a leaderboard system other than time based?


Maybe I don't care about leaderboards?

Also, raids have had leaderboards for ages...

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:13 pm
by Flex
Paxen wrote:
Flex wrote:How else would you have a leaderboard system other than time based?


Maybe I don't care about leaderboards?


If you don't care about the leaderboards don't worry about the timing system. Unless you mean there should be an alternate way to earn Silver and Gold beyond just being faster. But being faster usually shows better group composition and skill and knowledge level.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:23 pm
by melisandyr
But being faster usually shows better group composition and skill and knowledge level.


Spot on, but I think sadly the group composition element is far too dominant a feature of all of these.

I think the emphasis on doing as much damage, as quickly as possible is a sad one, because it means that protection paladins are highly marginalised. Why take a tank class that takes a lot of damage initially, and can pull mediocore dps when you could take a death knight who can bring insane aoe damage, alongside huge absorbs with vengeance that mean the healer can dps instead of heal too.

I'm also disappointed that you have to bring the class, not the player, to get the best buff coverage possible.

A good idea for challenging content, but I'd really like some metrics for tanks and healers that don't just rely on speed running the instance.

Like least damage taken, least underhealing done, least mana used.
I think so often there are missed opportunities because there isn't much exploration beyond raw dps output in Blizz HQ.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:33 pm
by fuzzygeek
Fenrìr wrote:lol, I was thinking Shattered Halls.


As Paladin tanks h.SH made us look like little gods. SL was tedious, but not difficult if you pulled well.

Heroic Arcatraz back in the day, however, was just a giant column of shit you had to climb with your chin up and mouth open.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:04 pm
by Amirya
fuzzygeek wrote:
Fenrìr wrote:lol, I was thinking Shattered Halls.


As Paladin tanks h.SH made us look like little gods. SL was tedious, but not difficult if you pulled well.

Heroic Arcatraz back in the day, however, was just a giant column of shit you had to climb with your chin up and mouth open.

Heroic Shadow Labs.

I had the joy, one day, of tanking for a guild group, where it took us 90 minutes to kill the time-for-fun shitsack because every single time, the first target was the squishy priest healer, and every single time, she dropped dead. I believe there were even a few stops to repair (we never wiped, it was always staggered runbacks).

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:20 pm
by Newsom
Promdates wrote:
Lieris wrote:If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),


It's called Challenge Modes. 5 man content that takes effort, skill, and dedication to complete. Your average wow player won't be able to get all golds in it.


No, Challenge Modes are something different due to them being timed. It's really not the same. Also they are not that hard to be honest.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:05 pm
by Fetzie
Challenge Modes are basically gather up the trash before a boss, bomb the shit out of it, pull the boss, continue. And use invis potions to get past any trash that would take you too long to kill. Not what I imagine when I hear the phrase "challenge mode". Not really interested in running a time trial event.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:14 pm
by Darielle
So how do you make challenging and fun content, that players want to do, without making it feel obligatory and/or a big time drain?


You make them mutually exclusive (in terms of rewards).

Shado-Pan Assault Rep versus Legendary Sigils is a great example of the effect, where one is mutually exclusive and there's no incentive to double up for more rewards (but there's nothing stopping you from doing X for any other reason - ignoring the fact that other reasons that are rewards incentives like 4-sets exist, let's pretend hypothetically that we would be talking about any reward), while one does allow you to double dip rewards and so there is an incentive.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:57 am
by fuzzygeek
Amirya wrote:Heroic Shadow Labs.


Yes, I meant heroic SL. Misplaced the h. modifier. Normal dungeons aren't even worth talking about. And no, I never had problems with it, but then we never did it unless specifically for a key run with people who had a clue.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:34 am
by Nooska
All this talk of hSL brings back the memory of being a bear tank = pull with wrath and moonfire on 2 targets before shifting to bear form for the rage.
Disregarding rosecolored glasses, TBC was the expansion where I had the most fun playing (came late to wow, so vanilla was never "played" - I think I was level 12 by the time TBC prepatch hit)

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:03 am
by econ21
Has anything changed with vengeance and taunting with the patch? On Gara'jal, I used to taunt to get half the fixated tank's vengeance but since the patch, this has not been showing up on my vengeance tracking addon. I guess it's just an issue with the add-on, but wanted to check.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:43 am
by Worldie
Uh? Taunt never transferred any vengeance.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:52 am
by Newsom
It does on Gara'jal. You get half of the other tank's vengeance whenever he's fixated and you taunt. Still works by the way.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:08 am
by benebarba
Newsom wrote:It does on Gara'jal. You get half of the other tank's vengeance whenever he's fixated and you taunt. Still works by the way.


Huh - somehow missed this little tidbit.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:36 pm
by Darielle
I believe it also works on stationary bosses if you're out of range when you do the taunt; the boss won't switch targets because you're not in melee range, but you'll get the half-Vengeance.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:14 am
by Daeva001
Worldie wrote:Uh? Taunt never transferred any vengeance.


Ghostcrawler confirmed on Twitter that taunting gives you half of the previous target's Vengeance:

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status ... 2401455104

You generally don't notice because the boss turns around and hits you, generating your own Vengeance on him, but it is there. It's just more readily apparent on fights like Gara'jal because he doesn't turn and thwack you when you taunt him.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:17 am
by benebarba
From ze hotfixes for yesterday:

Raids, Dungeons and Scenarios

Throne of Thunder
Durumu the Forgotten
Safe spots in the maze of Eye Sores now appear earlier, before the Disintegration Beam starts moving.
Adjustments were made to visual effects for Eye Sores to make it easier to see the maze.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:53 am
by halabar
Is the ToT loot table for the 4-6 bosses as crappy for all classes as it is for hunters and priests? Other than the tier legs, there's hardly anything that I want from that whole wing of ToT.

Re: patch 5.2 ?

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:36 am
by bldavis
halabar wrote:Is the ToT loot table for the 4-6 bosses as crappy for all classes as it is for hunters and priests? Other than the tier legs, there's hardly anything that I want from that whole wing of ToT.

i think DKs have a weapon...id have to double check