patch 5.2 ?

[Lieris]

I don't even understand how someone considers them even a progression path. They're glorified time trials with rewards that do nothing to actually advance your character. There's not even going to be any expansion of them in Mists due to the whole "we can't be bothered to make more dungeons we're too busy coming up with 500 thousand more yawn inducing daily quests because the overwhelming feedback has been 100% positive"

They have their priorities so infuriatingly wrong. We've gone from 1 or 2 non-essential daily hubs an expansion (I am not including those that can skipped with a tabard) to maybe a dozen in MOP with important PVE items and frozen me out of the semi-serious 3 night raiding I enjoyed because some weeks I only have time (or only want) to log on for raids. It's sad that a content patch point release now sometimes just means more dailies.

[Worldie]

Tecnically you don't have to do the dailies at all if you raid, as gear from rep is worse than gear from raids.

[Flex]

Tecnically you don't have to do the dailies at all if you raid, as gear from rep is worse than gear from raids.

This.

The big argument is based around the shifting place of what valor gear should be. From fill in the gap on unlucky drops in the original badge gear stance to almost essential to gearing up in WotLK and Cataclysm to a reward for players who partake in content.

5.2 looks to strike a better balance more along the lines of the original intent. Get valor from killing bosses, use valor to buy gear from the reputation vendor tied to the raid you're doing.

[Lieris]

Tecnically you don't have to do the dailies at all if you raid, as gear from rep is worse than gear from raids.

It's not just the dailies that would stop me from being able to just login for raids.

[Paxen]

I don't care about the rewards from Challenge modes (tbh, I think it's awesome that there aren't any).

I do dislike that they're timed, and I have a hard time finding a group now that I'm not a raider (and haven't been raiding seriously for a year). Even though I dislike the timing aspect of it, I'm still trying to find a group any way I can.

But a proper 5-man progression path would have been even more awesome. Maybe I could even find a 5-man focused guild then.

[Flex]

I don't care about the rewards from Challenge modes (tbh, I think it's awesome that there aren't any).

I do dislike that they're timed, and I have a hard time finding a group now that I'm not a raider (and haven't been raiding seriously for a year). Even though I dislike the timing aspect of it, I'm still trying to find a group any way I can.

But a proper 5-man progression path would have been even more awesome. Maybe I could even find a 5-man focused guild then.

How else would you have a leaderboard system other than time based?

[Paxen]

How else would you have a leaderboard system other than time based?

Maybe I don't care about leaderboards?

Also, raids have had leaderboards for ages...

[Flex]

How else would you have a leaderboard system other than time based?

Maybe I don't care about leaderboards?

If you don't care about the leaderboards don't worry about the timing system. Unless you mean there should be an alternate way to earn Silver and Gold beyond just being faster. But being faster usually shows better group composition and skill and knowledge level.

[melisandyr]

But being faster usually shows better group composition and skill and knowledge level.

Spot on, but I think sadly the group composition element is far too dominant a feature of all of these.

I think the emphasis on doing as much damage, as quickly as possible is a sad one, because it means that protection paladins are highly marginalised. Why take a tank class that takes a lot of damage initially, and can pull mediocore dps when you could take a death knight who can bring insane aoe damage, alongside huge absorbs with vengeance that mean the healer can dps instead of heal too.

I'm also disappointed that you have to bring the class, not the player, to get the best buff coverage possible.

A good idea for challenging content, but I'd really like some metrics for tanks and healers that don't just rely on speed running the instance.

Like least damage taken, least underhealing done, least mana used.
I think so often there are missed opportunities because there isn't much exploration beyond raw dps output in Blizz HQ.

[fuzzygeek]

lol, I was thinking Shattered Halls.

As Paladin tanks h.SH made us look like little gods. SL was tedious, but not difficult if you pulled well.

Heroic Arcatraz back in the day, however, was just a giant column of shit you had to climb with your chin up and mouth open.

[Amirya]

lol, I was thinking Shattered Halls.

As Paladin tanks h.SH made us look like little gods. SL was tedious, but not difficult if you pulled well.

Heroic Arcatraz back in the day, however, was just a giant column of shit you had to climb with your chin up and mouth open.

Heroic Shadow Labs.

I had the joy, one day, of tanking for a guild group, where it took us 90 minutes to kill the time-for-fun shitsack because every single time, the first target was the squishy priest healer, and every single time, she dropped dead. I believe there were even a few stops to repair (we never wiped, it was always staggered runbacks).

[Newsom]

If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),

It's called Challenge Modes. 5 man content that takes effort, skill, and dedication to complete. Your average wow player won't be able to get all golds in it.

No, Challenge Modes are something different due to them being timed. It's really not the same. Also they are not that hard to be honest.

[Fetzie]

Challenge Modes are basically gather up the trash before a boss, bomb the shit out of it, pull the boss, continue. And use invis potions to get past any trash that would take you too long to kill. Not what I imagine when I hear the phrase "challenge mode". Not really interested in running a time trial event.

[Darielle]

So how do you make challenging and fun content, that players want to do, without making it feel obligatory and/or a big time drain?

You make them mutually exclusive (in terms of rewards).

Shado-Pan Assault Rep versus Legendary Sigils is a great example of the effect, where one is mutually exclusive and there's no incentive to double up for more rewards (but there's nothing stopping you from doing X for any other reason - ignoring the fact that other reasons that are rewards incentives like 4-sets exist, let's pretend hypothetically that we would be talking about any reward), while one does allow you to double dip rewards and so there is an incentive.

[fuzzygeek]

Heroic Shadow Labs.

Yes, I meant heroic SL. Misplaced the h. modifier. Normal dungeons aren't even worth talking about. And no, I never had problems with it, but then we never did it unless specifically for a key run with people who had a clue.