patch 5.2 ?

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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Lieris » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:57 am

Nikachelle wrote:Reminds me of a four hour run on Murmur back in BC. Oh god the memories.


Shadow Labs was brutal but oh so good looking back. :) You've got to love all the stealthed rogues crawling around, trying to pick the right moment to show the clothies the true meaning of pain and the "Time for fun!" ogre.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:00 am

<3
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:23 am

Newsom wrote:Yeah, I have to say I'm starting to enjoy scenarios a whole lot more than 5 mans.

I still wish there was really difficult 5 man content though - I'm not a huge fan of the time based component of Challenge Modes. I'd love to see a long 5 man with raid like difficulty (bring back Karazhan!?) where you aren't guaranteed to clear the place even in an organized group.


I think they came close with the trollroics and the cata release 5-mans like Grim Batol and HoO. But I think the problem was those were tossed in the same pool as the other 5-mans progression-wise. If indeed there is a sizeable chunk of the community who wants small, but difficult and rewarding group content that isn't just about going fast, perhaps content somewhere between those older heroics (back when heroics weren't just 'level cap dungeons') and scenarios/LFR is useful.

My thought is something where, like challenge modes, you aren't expected to just be able to queue up and make it happen with a random group of people during your lunch break. You'd zone in like a traditional raid, or perhaps queue if the scenario mechanism is used, with a premade (at least at first). Encounters could basically be like some of the scenarios/dungeon encounters combined with the T-14 LFR encounters where there are tasks that needed to be completed by coordinating the group, specific mechanics which need to be dealt with, etc. You could even have an extended lockout like a raid - so that the idea wasn't that you had to finish it *right now*, and you could make the gear drop better than other small-group content as a result (since it couldn't be farmed ad nauseum in the first week).

of course, I think the answer to 'why don't you do that' is 'because we have LFR/normal modes and challenge modes', assuming they haven't gotten a great deal of feedback asking for non-speed-based challenge mode-like content or that the devs just think it's crazy talk.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:35 am

When it comes to adding non-raid content with decent (raid-equivalent) rewards, Blizzard have a bit of a problem on their hands, because players have a tendency to act like anything that can get them an advantage in their favoured part of the game is required. (It's easy to understand the perspective: if you do not do x to get item y, but other players do, you're at a disadvantage and/or could be considered to be holding your group back by not taking every advantage you can get.)

So you revive challenging 5-man dungeons that take an hour or more to complete and provide raid level rewards... and people complain that they're now having to spend hours of their time completing these 5-mans to keep up.

So how do you make challenging and fun content, that players want to do, without making it feel obligatory and/or a big time drain?

On one level the move away from organised group content makes sense, as the easier stuff you just queue for doesn't hit that problem of time vs. incentive, but on another level, the game needs that small group content to teach players how to work in an organised group, and to give tanks/healers a purpose when not raiding.

It would be great if Blizzard could implement this content and just let players choose to run it for fun, but then people stop participating if there's no good reward for it.

I guess if they want to bring back this stuff, it would need to have limits on its rewards. Like a weekly lockout instead of a daily one.

I think there's a gap emerging in the current game design which could be filled by small-group raids, old-style harder 5-mans but with a weekly lockout. But there's a helluva lot of other content that Blizz already has to spend its time working on too.

I hope this rambling makes some sort of sense.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:28 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I hope this rambling makes some sort of sense.


I think it does. And I agree, though I think there is some overestimation in how much Blizz really listens to the 'but blizzz, I *have* do this nao, thanks for ruining my life' stuff when they design content. I do believe they think about it, but I think other stuff trumps the complaints of that portion of the userbase (as demonstrated by actions). Either way, I think that the key would be a weekly lockout if they introduced this sort of content since it would be no different than separate lockouts for 10/25 man raids - but would also be available to 10 man groups. *And* I think it would help with pacing, and lighten up the pressure to down everything now, so you can go do it again tomorrow.

It would also be a step towards having a small-group progression path, but there you run the difficulty of avoiding the issues that raid size changes brought along with them. This I think is the bigger problem. I doubt lore/content completion alone would be sufficient to fight that, though it would certainly help. If there was a limited selection of slots that could be filled, or if the gear was slightly less than that in say LFR (or normal - depending on the difficulty), or both, then you may be able to avoid it driving downsizing.

On the other hand, it could provide those groups like my guild (that had done 10 mans) who lost a whole pile of people something to do if they can't get numbers up.

all that said- I have my doubts it would happen. The team is spread pretty thin already. I somehow don't think that the small-group progression path is a direction they plan on pursuing. I think 'fast fun' for small groups, with LFR for getting a look at the raid lore/content and 'progressive challenge' for organized large groups is what they've settled on for at least this expansion. I don't think it helps that they'd also have to fight the group 'sizism' that seems exist.

I actually expect non-objective driven PVP content to come first.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Promdates » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:39 am

Lieris wrote:If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),


It's called Challenge Modes. 5 man content that takes effort, skill, and dedication to complete. Your average wow player won't be able to get all golds in it.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:55 am

Promdates wrote:
Lieris wrote:If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),


It's called Challenge Modes. 5 man content that takes effort, skill, and dedication to complete. Your average wow player won't be able to get all golds in it.


last I checked raids weren't challenging because your loots depended on how fast you did it (outside of a couple encounters or achievements)
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:30 am

The idea of speed running totally put me off Challenge modes.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Lieris » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:33 am

Promdates wrote:
Lieris wrote:If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),


It's called Challenge Modes. 5 man content that takes effort, skill, and dedication to complete. Your average wow player won't be able to get all golds in it.


Unfortunately barely anybody is interested in doing them and the few that are stopped doing them as soon as they got golds. They aren't a substitute for a proper 5 man progression path.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:37 am

benebarba wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:I hope this rambling makes some sort of sense.


I think it does. And I agree, though I think there is some overestimation in how much Blizz really listens to the 'but blizzz, I *have* do this nao, thanks for ruining my life' stuff when they design content.


That's the reason Shado-Pan and August Celestials are gated behind Golden Lotus. That just replaced one form of bitching with another form of bitching though.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Teranoid » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:46 am

Lieris wrote:
Promdates wrote:
Lieris wrote:If they could do 5 man content that is as hard as raid content (several hours to learn, unforgiving, consumables etc.),


It's called Challenge Modes. 5 man content that takes effort, skill, and dedication to complete. Your average wow player won't be able to get all golds in it.


Unfortunately barely anybody is interested in doing them and the few that are stopped doing them as soon as they got golds. They aren't a substitute for a proper 5 man progression path.


I don't even understand how someone considers them even a progression path. They're glorified time trials with rewards that do nothing to actually advance your character. There's not even going to be any expansion of them in Mists due to the whole "we can't be bothered to make more dungeons we're too busy coming up with 500 thousand more yawn inducing daily quests because the overwhelming feedback has been 100% positive"
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:50 am

They were harder content for the sake of harder content. It is a giant troll on Blizzard's end to people saying they wanted challenging 5 man content and going "Here it is. You only get cosmetic rewards from it. That should be enough for people who want difficult for difficult's sake right?"
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:55 am

Flex wrote:They were harder content for the sake of harder content. It is a giant troll on Blizzard's end to people saying they wanted challenging 5 man content and going "Here it is. You only get cosmetic rewards from it. That should be enough for people who want difficult for difficult's sake right?"


And then make those cosmetic rewards meh at best and ugly in most cases for good measure.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:56 am

halabar wrote:
Flex wrote:They were harder content for the sake of harder content. It is a giant troll on Blizzard's end to people saying they wanted challenging 5 man content and going "Here it is. You only get cosmetic rewards from it. That should be enough for people who want difficult for difficult's sake right?"


And then make those cosmetic rewards meh at best and ugly in most cases for good measure.


That's 1/3rd of the rewards.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:16 pm

Flex wrote:They were harder content for the sake of harder content. It is a giant troll on Blizzard's end to people saying they wanted challenging 5 man content and going "Here it is. You only get cosmetic rewards from it. That should be enough for people who want difficult for difficult's sake right?"


This is the best way I've ever heard it put.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Lieris » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:21 pm

Teranoid wrote:I don't even understand how someone considers them even a progression path. They're glorified time trials with rewards that do nothing to actually advance your character. There's not even going to be any expansion of them in Mists due to the whole "we can't be bothered to make more dungeons we're too busy coming up with 500 thousand more yawn inducing daily quests because the overwhelming feedback has been 100% positive"


They have their priorities so infuriatingly wrong. We've gone from 1 or 2 non-essential daily hubs an expansion (I am not including those that can skipped with a tabard) to maybe a dozen in MOP with important PVE items and frozen me out of the semi-serious 3 night raiding I enjoyed because some weeks I only have time (or only want) to log on for raids. It's sad that a content patch point release now sometimes just means more dailies.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Worldie » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:25 pm

Tecnically you don't have to do the dailies at all if you raid, as gear from rep is worse than gear from raids.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:29 pm

Worldie wrote:Tecnically you don't have to do the dailies at all if you raid, as gear from rep is worse than gear from raids.


This.

The big argument is based around the shifting place of what valor gear should be. From fill in the gap on unlucky drops in the original badge gear stance to almost essential to gearing up in WotLK and Cataclysm to a reward for players who partake in content.

5.2 looks to strike a better balance more along the lines of the original intent. Get valor from killing bosses, use valor to buy gear from the reputation vendor tied to the raid you're doing.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Lieris » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:49 pm

Worldie wrote:Tecnically you don't have to do the dailies at all if you raid, as gear from rep is worse than gear from raids.


It's not just the dailies that would stop me from being able to just login for raids.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Paxen » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:00 pm

I don't care about the rewards from Challenge modes (tbh, I think it's awesome that there aren't any).

I do dislike that they're timed, and I have a hard time finding a group now that I'm not a raider (and haven't been raiding seriously for a year). Even though I dislike the timing aspect of it, I'm still trying to find a group any way I can.

But a proper 5-man progression path would have been even more awesome. Maybe I could even find a 5-man focused guild then.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:04 pm

Paxen wrote:I don't care about the rewards from Challenge modes (tbh, I think it's awesome that there aren't any).

I do dislike that they're timed, and I have a hard time finding a group now that I'm not a raider (and haven't been raiding seriously for a year). Even though I dislike the timing aspect of it, I'm still trying to find a group any way I can.

But a proper 5-man progression path would have been even more awesome. Maybe I could even find a 5-man focused guild then.


How else would you have a leaderboard system other than time based?
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Paxen » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:09 pm

Flex wrote:How else would you have a leaderboard system other than time based?


Maybe I don't care about leaderboards?

Also, raids have had leaderboards for ages...
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:13 pm

Paxen wrote:
Flex wrote:How else would you have a leaderboard system other than time based?


Maybe I don't care about leaderboards?


If you don't care about the leaderboards don't worry about the timing system. Unless you mean there should be an alternate way to earn Silver and Gold beyond just being faster. But being faster usually shows better group composition and skill and knowledge level.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby melisandyr » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:23 pm

But being faster usually shows better group composition and skill and knowledge level.


Spot on, but I think sadly the group composition element is far too dominant a feature of all of these.

I think the emphasis on doing as much damage, as quickly as possible is a sad one, because it means that protection paladins are highly marginalised. Why take a tank class that takes a lot of damage initially, and can pull mediocore dps when you could take a death knight who can bring insane aoe damage, alongside huge absorbs with vengeance that mean the healer can dps instead of heal too.

I'm also disappointed that you have to bring the class, not the player, to get the best buff coverage possible.

A good idea for challenging content, but I'd really like some metrics for tanks and healers that don't just rely on speed running the instance.

Like least damage taken, least underhealing done, least mana used.
I think so often there are missed opportunities because there isn't much exploration beyond raw dps output in Blizz HQ.
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Re: patch 5.2 ?

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:33 pm

Fenrìr wrote:lol, I was thinking Shattered Halls.


As Paladin tanks h.SH made us look like little gods. SL was tedious, but not difficult if you pulled well.

Heroic Arcatraz back in the day, however, was just a giant column of shit you had to climb with your chin up and mouth open.
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