Valor reward discussion

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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Flex » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:27 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Yeah but heroic mode is like endgame+. Point is that in Wrath it offered gear of the same item level that was obtainable in the latest dungeon.


Wasn't launch wrath 10 man tokens in heroics and 10 man raids can only buy 10 man gear. 25 man tokens only from 25 man raids to buy 25 man level gear. Then when Ulduar was released old 25 man tokens became the 10 man tokens. Trial of the Crusader was a huge fustercluck with everyone having to go through the lower raid gear first. ICC was pretty clear cut and the first time I really remember the daily heroic granting a currency greater than what you could get from the heroic itself.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Nooska » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:33 pm

Reading through th ethread I can agree with a lot of points on both sides, only really one thing that annoys me.

"Needing valor gear"...

We don't need valor gear to raid (I mean, if we needed gear of the ivl that drop sin an instance, whay do we need drops from the instance anyway?).

We want valor gear.

There is a mile of difference between those when discussion the pros and cons of the system.

But yeah, I also wanted the gear, and therefor eI did all teh rep grinds - no way am I doing them on my alts till 4.1 (well, my BS DK might go for the recipies, but without having looked up thats klaxxi which should be almost there anyway).

Thing is, I don't actually need any of the valor gear (well I could switch up my shoulders and my belt), because everything else was overtaken by reality - and at this point I don't think I will buy the shoulders at all, I will probably buy the belt (so I don't feel like I'm wasting ggold when I use the belt buckle), but apart from that I don't think I'll spend more valor before 5.1, even though I have 2 476 pieces (crafted).

So, when we talk about it, lets remember that we WANT VP gear, we don't NEED it (just ask Treck, I would guess).
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:02 am

Wasn't launch wrath 10 man tokens in heroics and 10 man raids can only buy 10 man gear. 25 man tokens only from 25 man raids to buy 25 man level gear. Then when Ulduar was released old 25 man tokens became the 10 man tokens. Trial of the Crusader was a huge fustercluck with everyone having to go through the lower raid gear first. ICC was pretty clear cut and the first time I really remember the daily heroic granting a currency greater than what you could get from the heroic itself.


At all tiers, you could get Valor/Conquest/Triumph/Frost from 5-mans, just gated at 2 per day. It may have been either the ToC or the ICC patch where they put in the Raid Weekly quest, which also awarded highest token from killing a boss on any mode.

We don't need valor gear to raid (I mean, if we needed gear of the ivl that drop sin an instance, whay do we need drops from the instance anyway?).

We want valor gear.


To be fair, you're implying that people are only concerned with using Valor gear to raid normal mode, which isn't necessarily true.
We also play in a world where some people "need" 35% nerfs to raid Normal anyway, so ... the "need" logic doesn't really work.

Yeah but heroic mode is like endgame+


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That's even more debatable since ICC/Cataclysm and the raid nerf system really took hold.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:03 am

Darielle wrote:
Wasn't launch wrath 10 man tokens in heroics and 10 man raids can only buy 10 man gear. 25 man tokens only from 25 man raids to buy 25 man level gear. Then when Ulduar was released old 25 man tokens became the 10 man tokens. Trial of the Crusader was a huge fustercluck with everyone having to go through the lower raid gear first. ICC was pretty clear cut and the first time I really remember the daily heroic granting a currency greater than what you could get from the heroic itself.


At all tiers, you could get Valor/Conquest/Triumph/Frost from 5-mans, just gated at 2 per day. It may have been either the ToC or the ICC patch where they put in the Raid Weekly quest, which also awarded highest token from killing a boss on any mode.

Flex was right. During Naxx the only way to get Valor was to raid 25 man - everything else gave Justice. When Ulduar launched, the daily heroic and 10 man Ulduar rewarded Valor (with no new gear to buy) and only way to get Conquest was in 25 man Ulduar. I believe it was at some point during Ulduar that they patched things and made everything reward Conquest, then they kept that model for the rest of the expac with Triumph and Frost.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:17 am

Flex was right. During Naxx the only way to get Valor was to raid 25 man - everything else gave Justice. When Ulduar launched, the daily heroic and 10 man Ulduar rewarded Valor (with no new gear to buy) and only way to get Conquest was in 25 man Ulduar. I believe it was at some point during Ulduar that they patched things and made everything reward Conquest, then they kept that model for the rest of the expac with Triumph and Frost.


ToC was when they made everything that didn't already award Conquest award Conquest.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:30 pm

RE: "original purpose", I concede. I didn't play then, I was just parroting something I swore I read one of the CM/Dev-types write at some point. But I may have mis-remembered.

But I'll still hold onto the idea that the current VP & Elder (whatever they are called) token system which provides a reward for activity A which requires one to participate in separate activity B is fundamentally flawed, unless the desire was to use this as a mechanism to encourage cross-style play and assume that the rewards within a single activity are sufficient. But I am not sure that is more than a one-way street. I somehow doubt that a significant number of people are raiding *just* so they can use elder tokens to get upgrades (I imagine the mere presence of LFR did more than the tokens). But I imagine the number of people who are doing dailies *just* to have a way to spend valor to get upgrades is not insignificant. For those who enjoy and do both: I doubt it much matters one way or the other. For everyone else: having another avenue to use those rewards could certainly open up some nice options.

I've tried not to use the word 'forced', because that really seems to mean 'encouragement I don't like or don't agree with' in most of these discussions.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sagara » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:50 am

Sounds logical to try and promoe cross-activity. More content, so longer play time before we get bored... Now did they over-do it? I'd be inclined to agree - 4 reps is way too much when you have the opportunity to do all 4.

Maybe some sort of weekly cap for rep gains would be appropriate. Or simply a weekly daily quest cap.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:28 am

Sagara wrote:Sounds logical to try and promoe cross-activity. More content, so longer play time before we get bored... Now did they over-do it? I'd be inclined to agree - 4 reps is way too much when you have the opportunity to do all 4.

Maybe some sort of weekly cap for rep gains would be appropriate. Or simply a weekly daily quest cap.


Yeah, I think in order to make people who would be questing primarily not feel like they couldn't do much they also placed more of the onus for managing your play time on the player. Interestingly though, I'd have thought the Dev's would have figured that'd lead to more early burn out on content (therefore actually shortening the playability over when we had daily caps).

Another alternative could have been to have a graded rep/reward scale like LFD: the first faction whose dailies you complete (or some such thing) a day give you 1.5-2x more rep and/or VP, then maybe it gives you more VP and/or gold once you hit exalted. There I think the trouble would be communicating that: with LFD it's easy since it can be put right there in the interface. With dailies, I think they'd have to have introduced some sort of additional buff or UI/quest text element.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Zalaria » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:56 am

benebarba wrote:Yeah, I think in order to make people who would be questing primarily not feel like they couldn't do much they also placed more of the onus for managing your play time on the player. Interestingly though, I'd have thought the Dev's would have figured that'd lead to more early burn out on content (therefore actually shortening the playability over when we had daily caps).


This is exactly why they locked Shado-Pan and August Celestials behind Golden Lotus.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Koatanga » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:46 pm

I don't equate extending time played with extending the playability of the content. Not when the daily grind is just the same few quests over and over ad nauseum. I am less likely to explore my alts, and less likely to complete the zone quests, because my available play time is taken up with repetitive grinding of reputation on my main.

A more compelling execution of dailies would have been to have the dailies actually progress you through an area. Most areas have a number of quests that lead you through exploring the area. Imagine if you joined the pandaren taking back an entire area from the evil whatevers, but you were slowed by being part of the advancing army. After X number of quests, the expedition leader would say "that's all for today; let's camp here" and you can quest no further that day. And imagine part of those quests were repetitive - gathering food or water for the troops, helping to repair the infrastructure of the area - such that you had maybe 3 new quests that advanced the expedition along with your busy work of keeping the expedition moving.

30 days of such content would be 90 total new quests in the zone, with another 20 or so dailies that get repeated. It would give you the feeling of actually getting somewhere as you fight your way through the zone. It could be phased such that every day the area you passed becomes greener and more pleasant, to give you the feeling you are really taking back the land.

That would be content worth doing, ticking both the solo-questing and "we don't want you to get your rep too quickly" boxes.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Nooska » Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:57 pm

^That basically is what they did with GL, except they added random into it and didn't do quite so many steps, but tied them to rep levels rather than quests completed.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:06 pm

the devs are working very hard right now and this would be a huge expense of dev time and resources


almost as popular as soon-tm

though like nooska said, they did that with golden lotus
and to a certain extent they did it with klaxxi and tillers as well
klaxxi - more quests you finish in the zone = more paragons unlocked = more dailies with 3 more paragons coming at various rep levels
tillers - more rep = more farm plots = more rep daily from just farming

hell even cloud serpents changed dailies once you hit revered
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:14 pm

Koatanga wrote:I don't equate extending time played with extending the playability of the content. Not when the daily grind is just the same few quests over and over ad nauseum. I am less likely to explore my alts, and less likely to complete the zone quests, because my available play time is taken up with repetitive grinding of reputation on my main.

I do think the Devs have some ideas of how much play time should be involved in things - if it is realistic is another question, as is if the mechanism to achieve that playtime makes for a good game (and then: good for who?).

I certainly don't think dailies make for compelling gameplay as they are implemented currently at level 90. Maybe the Tillers and OOCS ones, because you actually get to see *something* change, and get immediate 'tangible' results when you earn something. The others are pretty much set up to be you going into the meat grinder for another day.


Koatanga wrote:A more compelling execution of dailies would have been to have the dailies actually progress you through an area. Most areas have a number of quests that lead you through exploring the area. Imagine if you joined the pandaren taking back an entire area from the evil whatevers, but you were slowed by being part of the advancing army. After X number of quests, the expedition leader would say "that's all for today; let's camp here" and you can quest no further that day. And imagine part of those quests were repetitive - gathering food or water for the troops, helping to repair the infrastructure of the area - such that you had maybe 3 new quests that advanced the expedition along with your busy work of keeping the expedition moving.


This is probably one place where I thought some of the Molten Front ideas would have worked better, and I like this line of thought. And as you say, it would actually seem like you are *doing* something. But I think the danger there is making the world seem populated: you'd probably need areas phased, and the phasing could make people 'move on', possibly never to return. So unless CRZs could account for that, you'd have early areas empty. Currently, since all of the dailies (like molten front) go through the same basic steps, you can ensure people will go to an area.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:34 pm

Vale of Eternal Blossoms is pretty much the same structure as the Molten Front - in MF, when you earned a certain number of tokens you unlocked some new quests which opened up a new part of the zone to do dailies in. In VoEB, when you reach different rep levels you get the quests to unlock a new area. The main difference is that areas you hadn't unlocked in the Molten Front were phased to be empty or inaccesible, whereas in VoEB the areas are all there and visible, you just can't get the quests yet.

I think the balance is off as far as number of quests and rep per quest. Golden Lotus has more quests for low reward per quest, compared to older rep grinds - it takes longer to get through it all, but the overall reward isn't any larger.

The Tillers is probably the most rewarding of the rep grinds this time (I haven't done Anglers, so can't say there). Lower time investment for the dailies, lots of optional ways to add in. But of course, it has the least immediate/significant (and most optional) rewards.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:45 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Vale of Eternal Blossoms is pretty much the same structure as the Molten Front - in MF, when you earned a certain number of tokens you unlocked some new quests which opened up a new part of the zone to do dailies in. In VoEB, when you reach different rep levels you get the quests to unlock a new area. The main difference is that areas you hadn't unlocked in the Molten Front were phased to be empty or inaccesible, whereas in VoEB the areas are all there and visible, you just can't get the quests yet.

I think the balance is off as far as number of quests and rep per quest. Golden Lotus has more quests for low reward per quest, compared to older rep grinds - it takes longer to get through it all, but the overall reward isn't any larger.

The Tillers is probably the most rewarding of the rep grinds this time (I haven't done Anglers, so can't say there). Lower time investment for the dailies, lots of optional ways to add in. But of course, it has the least immediate/significant (and most optional) rewards.

IIRC, In molten front you had the whole prepare->establish->push phasing I thought where the most evident change was not just the number of dailies and their location but also the state of the tree and the sanctuary hub in MF. That's kind of what I'm getting at. If I'm not mistaken, all of the dailies currently happen in areas that do not change - you just don't get any quests there until you've unlocked em. But with OOCS and Tillers you get some visible progression (your serpent and your farm, respectively), which is why I mentioned them. And we certainly see a lot of progression and phasing in the leveling experience... so I don't think it's by accident or technical limitation that things are set up the way they are.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:49 pm

all i would want is something like the amber things for klaxxi, eggs for OotCS, and harvesting for tillers
i guess the caches count as that for golden lotus, but they give basically nothing for rep(150 i think), where as harvesting is 100/200/300 per day depending on rep level, and eggs are 500
(i dont know what the klaxxi turn in is, i havent finished one)
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:55 pm

Klaxxi Dread Amber Shards are a very rare drop with a small reward, hardly worth mentioning.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:00 pm

It really comes down to balance. The Klaxxi work well up to Revered because you do the storylines, do a couple of days of dailies and then you get new story tidbits with the new Paragons. That's fine.

After that, you get into "grindy" as far as Exalted goes, but fewer people have that as a goal.

With GL, you have a one-two quest intro, leading into dailies that give very small returns, which makes the "repetition" or "grind" more noticeable. If they also had a more involved questline at Friendly, followed by a more significant questline at Honored that got you maybe 10 or so quests around the place, then it would feel more involving.

Another aspect is also HOW the story/daily lines is done. With the Klaxxi, as you're unlocking Paragons, you view different personalities and stuff like that, which helps, you feed the Kunchong, it grows, you use it on a rampage, Wind Reaver guy lets you go up and powerbomb down, etc. With GL, not so much. The couple of quests that involve the personal evil guy in the Halls is about it, aside from that it's a bunch of mobs like any other mob.

I think that's a bit of a reflection on the act that the Mogu themselves don't really come across very well; it would have been a great opportunity for a storyline that involved treachery, dark magics and excessive cruelty as is their nature (think Mogu capturing a bunch of people in battle, beheading them in front of your very eyes, putting thier heads on spikes as you're powerless to stop it, using dark magics on their corpses type affair). Instead, the Mogu are like this IDEA of a cruel, overlordy race that you don't really experience, you just get fed bits of info on how bad they are while they do nothing special, so they just feel like overdramatised and incompetent remodeled Draenei.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:27 pm

Darielle wrote:I think that's a bit of a reflection on the act that the Mogu themselves don't really come across very well; it would have been a great opportunity for a storyline that involved treachery, dark magics and excessive cruelty as is their nature (think Mogu capturing a bunch of people in battle, beheading them in front of your very eyes, putting thier heads on spikes as you're powerless to stop it, using dark magics on their corpses type affair). Instead, the Mogu are like this IDEA of a cruel, overlordy race that you don't really experience, you just get fed bits of info on how bad they are while they do nothing special, so they just feel like overdramatised and incompetent remodeled Draenei.

The following may be better in a different thread, but I agree.

After doing the lorewalkers stuff, this really is a big point and not just for the Mogu. I had this chat with a guildie: what the Lorewalkers tell you and what the quests represent are pretty stark contrasts for some of the races. Some of the 'mob' races: the Yongol, the saurok and the hozen you don't really get to see much other than what is presented in the Lorewalkers but they seem to line up pretty well. The Mogu are built up to be these uber baddies, but they seem just incompetent buffoons who managed to get to power somehow. I'm pretty certain if they had mustaches they'd twirl them. I feel like the Pandaren fall flat at 90 when you are doing what seem like more minor tasks than the stuff you'd done while leveling too: the Shado Pan (Uber protectors of Pandaria) apparently can't reclaim minor footholds even with the assistance of the very heroes who killed Deathwing, The Lich King and assorted other baddies. The Golden Lotus seem to be in a similar issue in the Vale.

Maybe it's me, but I felt that most of the dailies at level 90 seemed less 'epic' than most of the stuff I did while leveling. Saving villages, establishing alliance footholds, winning hearts and minds and what not certainly was more enjoyable than 'slowing' the march of the mogu/mantid by offering up some minor inconveniences that provide no discernible change.

Needless to say I feel like the grind comes less from the action of doing quests on a daily basis and more from what seems like a development choice of making the results of your actions essentially invisible (and quest series nearly identical) for the sake of gameplay.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:44 pm

WARNING - inc wall o' text
and i agree with brekkie, this belongs in the lore thread, but w/e

well we are pretty big badasses
i mean we took down the leader of the scourge - at the height of his power AND in his throne room, where he is the most powerful!
we have ended not just 1, but TWO dragon aspects (ok ok , we ended one, we assisted thrall with the other)
we have taken down the brood mother of the black dragon flight 3 times now? and her brother twice
we have taken down 2 elemental lords (MC ragnaros was merely summoned to our realm, we sent him back, it was in firelands that we killed him finally)
hmm lets see....
we took down 2? Eradar lords of the burning legion ...no 3, archimode, KJ, and Jarraxis, granted 2 were leaders of the Eradar, and Jarraxis was an officer in the army but still, they are powerful demons.

we have raided the scourge's flying citidel Naxxramas TWICE
we have ended Illidan, Kael'thas, and Lady Vash'j during their reign of power

these are all pretty big baddies
not to mention 3 old gods have been killed
one by the titans, which in turn created the sha, and 2 by US
all we need now is an old god on EK and we have all the current continents covered! (crap, i just spoiled Garrosh's corruption, it happens while in UC calling Sylvanis a bitch again) - btw i will be laughing my ass off if this happens

so all in all, we are pretty bad ass
we are the heroes of legend
i mean you figure most of the normal populous is a farmer, trader, blacksmith, etc
not everyone is a super powerful being like the player character is
in the lore, the player characters are rare and really REALLY powerful

maybe this says something about how powerful the sha truly are?
they need a group of some of the most powerful beings on the planet to take them down, mere fighters like the shado-pan monks arent enough
they can hold the sha back, but cannot defeat it or even advance on it until we have a concentrated strike
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:31 pm

bldavis wrote:i guess the caches count as that for golden lotus, but they give basically nothing for rep(150 i think)

Caches have two possible rep items, a rare and an epic. Granted, even getting both in a single cache that's only ~600 rep.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Fetzie » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:46 pm

Jarraxis was an officer in the army but still


He one-shotted one of the most powerful demonologists the Alliance had to offer, and then proceeded to get his ass kicked by us. That alone shows how powerful our characters actually are when compared to even the best NPCs.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:35 pm

He one-shotted one of the most powerful demonologists the Alliance had to offer, and then proceeded to get his ass kicked by us. That alone shows how powerful our characters actually are when compared to even the best NPCs.


Let's be fair, in all these cases it's suspension that causes game mechanics to overdo "lore". "Lore" may have dictated an epic battle, but given that they can't erally do that in the middle of a raid, they had to play the "But I'm in charge .... hrrrgk".

Kinda like how the Lich King shows up and all the Lore figures sit there sipping their tea.

In the wider context of lore, our characters aren't all THAT powerful. In every single major figure, while for game purposes, we did the grunt work, in lore purposes, we were either helping or being helped by other figures. Illidan involved Akama and Maiev. KJ involved Kalec and Anveena. Archimonde involved Tyrande and the Wisps. Lich King had LolTirion. Malygos had the Red Dragonflight. Rag had DROOD POWER. etc. We're not run of the mill, but character power level is being a bit overstated. Some things we did ourselves, but even that's game implement logic.

they need a group of some of the most powerful beings on the planet to take them down, mere fighters like the shado-pan monks arent enough
they can hold the sha back, but cannot defeat it or even advance on it until we have a concentrated strike


According to Lore, the Sha were under control until we messed it up. All we're really doing is doing exactly what the Shado-Pan already did before we superfed the Sha.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:30 pm

Darielle wrote:
they need a group of some of the most powerful beings on the planet to take them down, mere fighters like the shado-pan monks arent enough
they can hold the sha back, but cannot defeat it or even advance on it until we have a concentrated strike


According to Lore, the Sha were under control until we messed it up. All we're really doing is doing exactly what the Shado-Pan already did before we superfed the Sha.


I don't buy that. It's not our fault the mantid race is corrupted, and there were many problems running amok long before we showed up. Garrosh's rage may make things worse before we put him down to make everything better, but it wasn't all roses before we showed up.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:54 pm

Only real example I can think of it being our fault is when we caused the destruction of the statue at Jade Temple. Now, I'll be the first to admit I don't follow the lore extremely closely, but everywhere else it just looked like we were helping clean up messes already in progress to gain favor with the factions there.

Excepting maybe the Vale, since we convinced them to reopen it, which allowed the Mogu back in (though a gate is hardly an obstruction for the Mantids, unless the closed gate represented some magical seal that was broken on the entire zone.)
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