Valor reward discussion

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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Shoju » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:24 am

As much as what I'm about to say makes me cringe, I think that a Shatari skyguard style rep grind would be better than just dailies.

with Skyguard, you had the dailies, and you could do them, but every mob also gave you rep, and you could collect the items, and get the pieces, and fight the elite mobs, and then fight the boss, and you could theoretically grind out the rep nonstop. At level, it was.... tedious, but could be done.

For me, I still think that raid quality gear being locked behind the bottleneck isn't the answer unless you are going to give the raiding player a way to work on preparing themselves for raiding (cough cough tabards) while earning the rep.

The Epic gear at raid ilvl is just a just reward. I hate using this argument, but if the idea of the rep vendors is to give the people who don't raid "a reward" why do they need raid level gear?
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby degre » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:32 am

Raiding players don't need the rep gear, they have other ways of earning, especially as you consider that raid drops are already higher quality than Valor gear.

Reputations have nothing that is compulsory. Nothing. If you want to do it is up to you, and while I can understand that people felt pressured to do them the first few weeks, now you just don't need them.

You want the reward? Do the grind.
You don't want it? Don't do it.

But for god's sake, stop whining that you want the reward without the effort.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Shoju » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:19 am

degre wrote:Raiding players don't need the rep gear, they have other ways of earning, especially as you consider that raid drops are already higher quality than Valor gear.

Reputations have nothing that is compulsory. Nothing. If you want to do it is up to you, and while I can understand that people felt pressured to do them the first few weeks, now you just don't need them.

You want the reward? Do the grind.
You don't want it? Don't do it.

But for god's sake, stop whining that you want the reward without the effort.


Completely disagree.

Not every raider is clearing content every week.
Not every raider is already working on Terrace of Endless Spring
Mogu'Shan Vaults is the VERY SAME Ilvl as the gear from the Rep Valor Rewards.
Valor Points, you know, those points you get from running dungeons, and putting in effort? Yeah, they are USELESS if you aren't able to purchase gear with them. They become SLIGHTLY useful in 5.1 when you can use them to upgrade the ilvl of pieces. I say slightly, because you aren't going to bother wasting the time to upgrade some POS piece of gear with them. You are going to upgrade your best pieces with them to make them last longer.
They want the reward. They did the grind.
They don't want to do a second grind.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Teranoid » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:36 am

degre wrote:Raiding players don't need the rep gear, they have other ways of earning, especially as you consider that raid drops are already higher quality than Valor gear.

Reputations have nothing that is compulsory. Nothing. If you want to do it is up to you, and while I can understand that people felt pressured to do them the first few weeks, now you just don't need them.

You want the reward? Do the grind.
You don't want it? Don't do it.

But for god's sake, stop whining that you want the reward without the effort.


No one is saying they don't want to put in the effort. What they're asking is for more avenues to put in that effort. Why was is it completely alright in Wrath and Cata that all we had to do to get valor gear was raid or do dungeons?

Why is it so important now to lock all that shit away behind rep grinds and then make some offhanded defense that "well you could always get something somewhere else" aside from trying to string people along because they can't fix what was supposedly broken in the past without flipping the needle to the other side with such a blinding force it snaps.

They're so afraid of people blowing through everything in a week that they're starting to alienate the people who asked for these changes to begin with.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby econ21 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:38 am

degre wrote:But for god's sake, stop whining that you want the reward without the effort.


I don't get this argument. It's a game. It's not a morality play, it's not about working hard IRL. We're not infants whining. Whose to say the effort for a given purple pixel reward should be 2 hours a day rather than 2 hours a week? Players want the game they are playing to be fun. Grinding dailies every day is just not fun.

In fact, come to think of it, dailies are just not a fun concept. You do a quest once, that's hopefully fun. Doing it 1, 2, 3, X times more on your alts? Ok that's fine, though maybe speed it up please (heirlooms? thanks!). But doing them every day for a couple of your months and then facing it on your alts? That's just a bad design and hence why I've yet to hear anyone saying how much they love doing dailies.

[The only exception might be if the dailies were so much fun, you did want to do them repeatedly. Gnomebliteration in Cata comes to mind, why was that not a daily? I can only think because it was too much fun, Blizzard did not want to undermine it by forcing people to do it to death.]

I guess the key problem is how to keep players playing a subscription game with a limited amount of content. Random drops from raiding is one way. Long grinds via dailies is another.

Given the constraints of what is available, my solution would be to make reputation BOA, solving the alts problem. And maybe make dailies into weeklies. Rather than be given 6 dailies of a faction today, another another raid 6 tomorrow, a final 6 the next and repeat, just give us all 18 now and let us do them at our own pace in the week. Perhaps doubling the rep rewards or something to balance it out. I think the pace of rep accumulation was ok but heck it has been hard work to accumulate it.

A bit more cross over with PvP, 5 mans and scenarios would be good too. No reason only dailies should give rep or why PvE/PvP rewards can't be exchanged. Perhaps something like double rewards with the first X of each kind of content a week to encourage people to play a variety of content. (I do think it is bad design if you just go nuts on heroics or dailies or whatever seems most efficient, ignoring the rest.)

Forgetting about reputation for a minute (I'm done with it on my main), I think the VP model in MoP is quite promising. It seems to strike a nice balance between different activities - I think I'll do LFR for half my VP cap, then mix it up with some dailies, five mans and even scenarios at a pace of my own choosing. But I'm glad I'm done with the daily rep grind.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:52 am

I think what it comes down to is the "fill in the gaps" model of points gear distribution that we've had in WotLK and Cata is being radically changed here, and people don't like that change. Since I'm not raiding this time around I'm not sure how I feel about it. But I will say that it does feel like we're back in vanilla, where drops are the only thing that matters unless you invest significant time outside of raiding.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby benebarba » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:05 am

Sabindeus wrote:I think what it comes down to is the "fill in the gaps" model of points gear distribution that we've had in WotLK and Cata is being radically changed here, and people don't like that change. Since I'm not raiding this time around I'm not sure how I feel about it. But I will say that it does feel like we're back in vanilla, where drops are the only thing that matters unless you invest significant time outside of raiding.


^ This. And I have this suspicion that the Devs either aren't in agreement on this philosophy change or they are trying to make the change without anyone 'noticing'.

If indeed the 'purpose' of VP isn't to be helping fill out slots that don't drop: the system needs some relatively minor tweaks but the community needs a major adjustment.

I think the trouble is an attempt to 'please them all' - mounts, patterns, special non-combat on-use items, and pets don't appeal to everyone. Gear pretty much has universal appeal, but if it can be obtained 'individually' prior to or parallel to raiding/heroics you can bet a large number of folks will feel compelled to try for it.

The current system, I believe, was intended to dissuade this last item by making the grinds very long (so some just don't want to bother). However, the result is that one of the original purposes of badge gear (fill in slots that won't drop) is necessarily lost if you don't want to do a specific (and unrelated) grind.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby jere » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:09 am

I honestly think that Golden Lotus is the only rep I really disagree with. I don't like how you have to be revered with them to rep with some of the other factions. I feel that is too much time investment for people trying to target reps for specific rewards. I also think their implementation of the GL dailies is too much on the side of number of dailies vs actual amount of rep gained. The Great Wall daily is one of the few of theirs I actually enjoy. They aren't tough dailies, just too numerous and forcing the first set to always be the same location is very grindy feeling.

That said, I felt the other reputations were fine in terms of time investment to revered/exalted (they could use some improvements, but not terrible). You only need honored for VP items 1250 and below, which was remarkably easy to get timewise, and revered for the rest, which took another 1-2 weeks depending on the faction.

I think I like the cloud serpent peoples the best as you could do semi rare turn ins to speed up the process. I also liked the buff system for the Klaxxi. That made their rep grind a lot more enjoyable and faster. They could have done a better job introducing the enhancements/augments to the player though. Most of my guildies didn't even realize they were available. The Shadow-pan were just barely over the "grindy" line for me as some of the quests did take some time, but it wasn't bad as rep rewards were good for 2/3 of the dailies (they need up the rep on the blackguard dailies section). My only complaints with August Celestials is that you start with lower rep with them and I didn't really care for the torch daily. I've enjoyed the Red Crane storyline.

One thing I thought about was they could possibly have dungeons give rep in some fashion up to a certain point (Revered for example) like how they handled some of the reps in Vanilla WoW, which would cover the gear issue and still leave the other half of the rep grind (rev->exalted) behind the grind wall for those who like mounts/pets/patterns.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:25 am

benebarba wrote:The current system, I believe, was intended to dissuade this last item by making the grinds very long (so some just don't want to bother). However, the result is that one of the original purposes of badge gear (fill in slots that won't drop) is necessarily lost if you don't want to do a specific (and unrelated) grind.

I take issue with that claim. In Burning Crusade, Badges of Justice didn't actually fill in any gaps at the cutting edge raid level. The item level was for 5 man heroics/10 man raids, not actual raids on the SSC/TK level. Even when they upgraded the gear, it was due to the release of Zul'Aman, a 10 man instance, and brought things up to that level, whereas 25 man raiding was still ahead. The whole "fill in the gaps" for raiding purposes didn't happen until Wrath.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby halabar » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:40 am

degre wrote:Reputations have nothing that is compulsory.
But for god's sake, stop whining that you want the reward without the effort.


Sure, none if it is compulsory, assuming:

1) You are willing to slow down progression by relying solely on gear drops to gear up.
2) You are willing to slow down progression by forgoing bonus roles
3) You are willing to pass on any of the professions items cock-blocked behind reputations.

It's not about not doing the work (although they went too far in slowing the gearing), it's the paths and the rate. As I've repeated, fixing it so it's not tied to having to login every day would be a big help, time spent is the same, but you gain the choice on when to spend that time.

In my raid group, we have a boomer/tree that is struggling to gear up both specs, and a few others who have time commitments that hinder the rep grinding. Making some adjustments to the current system could really help.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:54 am

halabar wrote:In my raid group, we have a boomer/tree that is struggling to gear up both specs, and a few others who have time commitments that hinder the rep grinding. Making some adjustments to the current system could really help.


But you see, that's where 5.1 fixes everything with being able to buy the 100% rep bonus! So shut your mouth and take it! :roll:
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:00 am

then 5.1 needs to hurry the f up...
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:04 am

Well... if I recall correctly, you need to be revered so you can get the rep bonus on your ALTS

Horray!
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:11 am

this is true, but you also gain double rep from revered to exalted

the thing i want to know is ...
is it that server only?
or is it all alts on your account?

this does have an impact for me as my main and my other raiding toon are on different servers
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:19 am

still not a proper solution imo.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:39 am

no, but it will help
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Flex » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:39 am

Koatanga wrote:Sorry, why does there need to be incentive to do dailies? I understand that Bliz feels the need to make us grind rep, but why is dailies THE mechanism for it?


Read Theck's replies for a basic run down.

In essence dailies is "solo level 90 questing content," something that has been asked for repeatedly by a subsection of the player population, with each reputation faction telling a progressive story. Since it is a new form of end game content they're putting rewards of end game quality on it.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Flex » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:47 am

halabar wrote:In my raid group, we have a boomer/tree that is struggling to gear up both specs, and a few others who have time commitments that hinder the rep grinding. Making some adjustments to the current system could really help.


In my raid group I don't care if people do rep stuff, as long as they're making an effort to be heroic dungeon geared I'm happy. Which seems to be sorting itself out now.

Blizzard said Rep grinding for group play is not mandatory so I'm passing that along.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Koatanga » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Flex wrote:Blizzard said Rep grinding for group play is not mandatory so I'm passing that along.

It's not mandatory to have 10 people in a 10-man raid, either, but you'd be stupid not to, and some of the DPS checks would be impossible or nearly so with entry-level gear.

Flex wrote:In essence dailies is "solo level 90 questing content," something that has been asked for repeatedly by a subsection of the player population, with each reputation faction telling a progressive story. Since it is a new form of end game content they're putting rewards of end game quality on it.

Repetitive dailies is not new, nor is it "solo level 90 questing content". We had max-level dailies in BC. There were max-level dailies in both Wrath and Cata as well. Nothing new there at all. Firelands dailies told a progressive story. Nothing new there.

What's new is forcing raiders to go through this slog of daily doldrums in order to "unlock" VP rewards in order to spend the VPs that they earn raiding.

I don't care if they want to offer leet purpz at exalted for doing 43 days of boring quests. Good for the people who last that long without putting a bullet through their computer.

But people who are not of that masochistic subsection should not have to grind rep to cash in the rewards earned outside of questing. We've earned the valour points; let us spend them.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Flex » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:05 pm

Simple solution is don't do it.

If it is an aspect of the game you don't find fun don't fucking do it.

I don't feel and sympathy for people who use the words "force" or any of the various phrasings that make it sound that if you don't do it you can't play the game.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:43 pm

I take issue with that claim. In Burning Crusade, Badges of Justice didn't actually fill in any gaps at the cutting edge raid level. The item level was for 5 man heroics/10 man raids, not actual raids on the SSC/TK level. Even when they upgraded the gear, it was due to the release of Zul'Aman, a 10 man instance, and brought things up to that level, whereas 25 man raiding was still ahead. The whole "fill in the gaps" for raiding purposes didn't happen until Wrath.


The JP items in the Sunwell patch were 141 items; only Archimonde and Illidan drops were actually higher.
The itemisation on most of them was ~, but it was enough to make a lot of them better than the drops in BT/Hyjal, and they were selected to fill in holes that were harder to fill from raids at the time. The caster dagger for example, which was there to fill in the itemisation hole where non-sword casters had no option between Prince and Naj/Hyjal Trash.

With that said, the "fill in the gaps" was also completely taken over in Wrath. At that point, it started becoming about putting in items of slot types that they didn't want "cluttering loot tables", which slowly evolved into what we had in Cataclysm where entier slots just had nothing in the raid tier.

I don't feel and sympathy for people who use the words "force" or any of the various phrasings that make it sound that if you don't do it you can't play the game.


And the sad part is that a semantics objection overrides the major design point where when something is there and does incentivise doing X (power jump), it will happen. If something's meant to be an "alternate progression path", it has to actually be an alternate progression path, and not just be something that adds on to the "main progression path" to progress a person further; at that point it blurs into the "main progression path".

It's in the same playing field as the many design decisions they've made to remove the things people were incentivised into doing - like 10-man/25-man lockouts, farming for Black Lotus, Blasted Lands consumables etc. Dangling a carrot and then telling people they don't have to chase the carrot is just poor form.

A Valor Cap can fuel a common progression path from various activities. You can raid and get Valor. You can do Dailies and get Valor. You can do Scenarios and get Valor. You can LFR and get Valor. You can do Dungeons and get Valor.
If any of those activities only gives you 400 Valor for all your efforts (raiding), pushing you into Dailies/Scenarios/Dungeons to have to get the majority of it, then it's not really fulfilling the point of alternate progression.

So yes, it's absolutely right that in approaching it, they need to preserve the element of "alternate progression" and keep Dailies whole for those who view Dailies as the thing they do.
It's also absolutely right that it's a problem situation in just how badly people who aren't looking for Dailies as a progression path get bumped into them for an arbitrary reason. This compounds onto the fact that they removed Dungeon Tabards because they didn't want Dungeons dipping Rep, Valor and Loot, but they're just pushing an even more extreme situation with Dailies by having even more dipping through Rep, Valor, Loot, Patterns, Raid-Quality Enchants, Flavour Items, Cooking all working off that system.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:02 pm

Darielle wrote:
I take issue with that claim. In Burning Crusade, Badges of Justice didn't actually fill in any gaps at the cutting edge raid level. The item level was for 5 man heroics/10 man raids, not actual raids on the SSC/TK level. Even when they upgraded the gear, it was due to the release of Zul'Aman, a 10 man instance, and brought things up to that level, whereas 25 man raiding was still ahead. The whole "fill in the gaps" for raiding purposes didn't happen until Wrath.


The JP items in the Sunwell patch were 141 items; only Archimonde and Illidan drops were actually higher.
The itemisation on most of them was ~, but it was enough to make a lot of them better than the drops in BT/Hyjal, and they were selected to fill in holes that were harder to fill from raids at the time. The caster dagger for example, which was there to fill in the itemisation hole where non-sword casters had no option between Prince and Naj/Hyjal Trash.

With that said, the "fill in the gaps" was also completely taken over in Wrath. At that point, it started becoming about putting in items of slot types that they didn't want "cluttering loot tables", which slowly evolved into what we had in Cataclysm where entier slots just had nothing in the raid tier.


Right, they did add stuff when Sunwell came out, I forgot about that. But still then the gear was T6 equivalent, where the current endgame was a whole tier ahead. The point I was trying to make is that the original incarnation of badge gear simply wasn't for cutting edge raiders to fill in their gaps, it was for people to play catchup.

And yes, in Wrath they changed it to be endgame equivalent. I was taking issue with the claim that the "original purpose" was to fill in gaps for raiders.
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby bldavis » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:33 pm

does it really matter what something was originally meant for?
i mean ffs if we start that, only ~1% will see the top tier raid (vanilla naxx)
and dungeons will take upwards of 3-4 hours
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby Darielle » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:47 am

Right, they did add stuff when Sunwell came out, I forgot about that. But still then the gear was T6 equivalent, where the current endgame was a whole tier ahead. The point I was trying to make is that the original incarnation of badge gear simply wasn't for cutting edge raiders to fill in their gaps, it was for people to play catchup.

And yes, in Wrath they changed it to be endgame equivalent. I was taking issue with the claim that the "original purpose" was to fill in gaps for raiders.


Sort of. The point in the Sunwell patch was to catch up on any slots that you might be missing from BT or there was an itemisation hole. While Wrath initially had Valor offer 213 which was same as Naxx-25, that soon was not actually endgame-equivalent when Heroics (or Hard Modes in Ulduar) actually became a thing. Even at release, Sarth-3D and Maly offered better items (Naxx wasn't really "cutting edge endgame").
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Re: Valor reward discussion

Postby jere » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:41 am

Well, the reason for what they did with Badges of Justice was at least promoted by Blizzard as a means for guilds to gear up new players so they didn't have to run new folks through old raid instances until they were geared up. A lot of this was done when they started taking out attunements as well. I won't say that raiders didn't use those pieces to fill in gaps, but the reasoning Blizzard used was more along the lines of helping out guilds that raid get new folks in and ready to go.
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