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Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:55 am
by bldavis
just have a different model for the mail gear (which is never going to happen, it means more work for the art team) and what is the issue?
have str/haste gear with tier bonuses that say when in prot - this, and when in ret - this and have int mail for holy
same tokens for both, after all bear/cats shared tier up til now

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:04 pm
by benebarba
Worldie wrote:
Shoju wrote:I always favored moving Holy Paladins to Mail, and giving them something that upped their armor to plate levels while wearing it. It would be awkward as well, but what else can you do? Add another class that wears plate and uses int? What would that be?

Adding another class (no idea what, blizzard duty to invent one :P ) that uses Int plate is probably the best choice. Making holy pala wear mail would create an awkard situation where pala tier would have to be both mail and plate.


And I have this wierd feeling that despite what seems like should just be a database entry change, that such a change would actually be pretty big. I chalk this change (making int plate not for 1 spec - either be removing it or making others use it) to one of those things that it would make a lot of sense to do, but that probably has some 'hidden' implementation-side issues preventing it from happening.

So yeah, I think it's more likely to get another int-plate class/spec than to remove the item type. Gimme a plate wearing ranged class! I somehow doubt that DKs will gain a ranged spellcaster spec at this point. It seems like that would be like Hunters getting a 'pet free' spec. I think it's a real alienation concern, let alone implementation/balance issues.

Now that deviated fully, one thing I think can be said about the VP/tokens/rep situation:
From a systems perspective, it is a great solution: everyone hates it, nearly equally ;)

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:17 pm
by Shoju
You have no idea the blood that would be spilled over giving Dk's a mana bar.

You'd only have mail for the holy set, not a huge deal. would be pretty easy to clone stats from R Shammy gear. I think an STR to Int type conversion would end poorly in PvP.

I don't see a lot of options that pan out well for int plate. Making another int plate class means that they would either need to be a caster that cared about spirit, or you introduce even more caster plate, (or do another spirit to hit conversion?)

And then there is balancing 3 more plate specs, at least one of which would be mana based.

The things I'm thinking of would all just be "knock offs" of a paladin / Warrior / DK, or a "knockoff" of a profession (Engineering)

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:30 pm
by Darielle
THey're not happy with any of the choices (Making Paladins use Mail, Str-->Int, or anything).

Honestly, I'm not sure why we're talking new classes when they now have a system to seriously consider adding 4th specs to multiple classes. They could actually make Shockadin (Paladin), or Necromancer (DK) a thing.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:47 pm
by Sabindeus
Darielle wrote:THey're not happy with any of the choices (Making Paladins use Mail, Str-->Int, or anything).

Honestly, I'm not sure why we're talking new classes when they now have a system to seriously consider adding 4th specs to multiple classes. They could actually make Shockadin (Paladin), or Necromancer (DK) a thing.


I would probably just flip all the tables if they actually made a paladin dps caster spec.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:00 pm
by Shoju
Sabindeus wrote:
Darielle wrote:THey're not happy with any of the choices (Making Paladins use Mail, Str-->Int, or anything).

Honestly, I'm not sure why we're talking new classes when they now have a system to seriously consider adding 4th specs to multiple classes. They could actually make Shockadin (Paladin), or Necromancer (DK) a thing.


I would probably just flip all the tables if they actually made a paladin dps caster spec.


Why? It could be pretty interesting, and could allow them to make some AWESOME 2h'd spell caster maces again. (I remember like one or two, and always thought they were AWESOME)

A DK Necromancer could be pretty interesting, but would need something amazing to make it "not another pet spec" and actually interesting. The major hurdle with a "Necromancer" type DK, is what do you do with the resources? Get rid of Runes / RP / neither for the spec?

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:03 pm
by Sabindeus
Shoju wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I would probably just flip all the tables if they actually made a paladin dps caster spec.


Why? It could be pretty interesting, and could allow them to make some AWESOME 2h'd spell caster maces again. (I remember like one or two, and always thought they were AWESOME)

A DK Necromancer could be pretty interesting, but would need something amazing to make it "not another pet spec" and actually interesting. The major hurdle with a "Necromancer" type DK, is what do you do with the resources? Get rid of Runes / RP / neither for the spec?

I'm just a Warcraft purist. I still flip a table every time I see a BElf Paladin.

The number of right-side up tables in my house is extremely low.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:06 pm
by Teranoid
Obviously they didn't read your and Invis's 50 page dissertation about how taurens shouldn't be paladins before Cata. :P

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:08 pm
by Shoju
Teranoid wrote:Obviously they didn't read your and Invis's 50 page dissertation about how taurens shouldn't be paladins before Cata. :P


No, I was a part of that. Cowadins are dumb. Forsaken would have been the best choice, followed by troll. Because everything is better as a troll.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:28 pm
by benebarba
Darielle wrote:THey're not happy with any of the choices (Making Paladins use Mail, Str-->Int, or anything).

Honestly, I'm not sure why we're talking new classes when they now have a system to seriously consider adding 4th specs to multiple classes. They could actually make Shockadin (Paladin), or Necromancer (DK) a thing.


I think that was them basically fixing the issue that was the feral tree in a way that wouldn't paint themselves into a corner. There becomes a serious bloat issue if they start adding specs, along with some of the comments that have come up before (I believe in GCs watercooler postings): differentiation (different color spells does not a spec make), alienation, complexity (play and balance) and 'look and feel'. I think many ideas get squashed because of the last one than anything else... no matter the logic, if someone high enough up on the Dev team likes the way it is being done, it isn't going to change anytime soon.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:32 pm
by benebarba
Darielle wrote:THey're not happy with any of the choices (Making Paladins use Mail, Str-->Int, or anything).

Honestly, I'm not sure why we're talking new classes when they now have a system to seriously consider adding 4th specs to multiple classes. They could actually make Shockadin (Paladin), or Necromancer (DK) a thing.


I think that was them basically fixing the issue that was the feral tree in a way that wouldn't paint themselves into a corner. There becomes a serious bloat issue if they start adding specs, along with some of the comments that have come up before (I believe in GCs watercooler postings): differentiation (different color spells does not a spec make), alienation, complexity (play and balance) and 'look and feel'. I think many ideas get squashed because of the last one. No matter the logic, if someone high enough up on the Dev team likes the way it is being done, it isn't going to change anytime soon.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:36 pm
by halabar
benebarba wrote:So yeah, I think it's more likely to get another int-plate class/spec than to remove the item type. Gimme a plate wearing ranged class! I somehow doubt that DKs will gain a ranged spellcaster spec at this point. It seems like that would be like Hunters getting a 'pet free' spec. I think it's a real alienation concern, let alone implementation/balance issues.


And I would totally support that, given the direction they've taken.

benebarba wrote:Now that deviated fully, one thing I think can be said about the VP/tokens/rep situation:
From a systems perspective, it is a great solution: everyone hates it, nearly equally ;)


Quite true.

Ok, new classes/specs...
Engineer - leather wearing int user
Necromancer - ranged spell DK (int)
Marksman - redone MM, no pet
??...

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:37 pm
by Darielle
I think that was them basically fixing the issue that was the feral tree in a way that wouldn't paint themselves into a corner. There becomes a serious bloat issue if they start adding specs, along with some of the comments that have come up before (I believe in GCs watercooler postings): differentiation (different color spells does not a spec make), alienation, complexity (play and balance) and 'look and feel'. I think many ideas get squashed because of the last one than anything else... no matter the logic, if someone high enough up on the Dev team likes the way it is being done, it isn't going to change anytime soon.


It was. This time.

What they do with it in the future isn't really going to have bearing on what they did with it now. Which is why if they did do additional specs, they probably would only do one or two.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:39 pm
by halabar
Shoju wrote:A DK Necromancer could be pretty interesting, but would need something amazing to make it "not another pet spec" and actually interesting. The major hurdle with a "Necromancer" type DK, is what do you do with the resources? Get rid of Runes / RP / neither for the spec?


Neither, you give them a third resource, which every other class will have by the next expansion.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:44 pm
by benebarba
halabar wrote:Ok, new classes/specs...
Engineer - leather wearing int user<snip>



They can pry my goggles from my cold, dead pally hands! Well, at least until next tier.

:P

On the MM no pet front: I actually wonder if one of the reasons they don't want to do this may have to do with it becoming more 'simple' to play than if there *was* a pet to manage as well (imagine if they just took the MM rotation and buffed the damage of each spell to account for the lack of pet damage). To be honest, it always seemed to me like MM, and possibly even survival, *shouldn't* have a pet. But then again, I always thought hunters should be able to ride their big pets :P

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:46 pm
by benebarba
halabar wrote:
Shoju wrote:A DK Necromancer could be pretty interesting, but would need something amazing to make it "not another pet spec" and actually interesting. The major hurdle with a "Necromancer" type DK, is what do you do with the resources? Get rid of Runes / RP / neither for the spec?


Neither, you give them a third resource, which every other class will have by the next expansion.


Well, admittedly for Prot, it seems like mana is kind of just there for looks now :P

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:48 pm
by Sabindeus
Shoju wrote:
Teranoid wrote:Obviously they didn't read your and Invis's 50 page dissertation about how taurens shouldn't be paladins before Cata. :P


No, I was a part of that. Cowadins are dumb. Forsaken would have been the best choice, followed by troll. Because everything is better as a troll.


Tauren Paladins are extremely dumb, but I honestly am more willing to accept them than the dumbtardedness of BE Paladin lore. As far as I am concerned, Paladin specifically refers to The Order of the Silver Hand, the elite group of Human clerics trained by Lothar and blessed by Archbishop Faol. Dwarves are also OK because they're awesome. Draenei... ehhhh... I can accept because they worked the Light so concretely into their backstory. But Blood Elves? High Elves had absolutely NO Paladins or Paladin-y leanings, nor did Kael's remnant army. And then all of a sudden, Paladins! Why? We're eating a Naaru! wtf.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:08 pm
by Shoju
Sabindeus wrote:
Shoju wrote:
Teranoid wrote:Obviously they didn't read your and Invis's 50 page dissertation about how taurens shouldn't be paladins before Cata. :P


No, I was a part of that. Cowadins are dumb. Forsaken would have been the best choice, followed by troll. Because everything is better as a troll.


Tauren Paladins are extremely dumb, but I honestly am more willing to accept them than the dumbtardedness of BE Paladin lore. As far as I am concerned, Paladin specifically refers to The Order of the Silver Hand, the elite group of Human clerics trained by Lothar and blessed by Archbishop Faol. Dwarves are also OK because they're awesome. Draenei... ehhhh... I can accept because they worked the Light so concretely into their backstory. But Blood Elves? High Elves had absolutely NO Paladins or Paladin-y leanings, nor did Kael's remnant army. And then all of a sudden, Paladins! Why? We're eating a Naaru! wtf.


I was ok with the magic siphoning from the naaru more than I was Liadrin's total wussification. Oh god. It's great, I love it, I can feel it. It was as if they took her dialogue from some late night skinemax soft core pron flick. Calling them Blood Knight's was awesome.

But, take that as the opinion of someone who didn't play warcraft, or II, or Vanilla. I'm just a TBC baby.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:41 pm
by halabar
benebarba wrote:
halabar wrote:Ok, new classes/specs...
Engineer - leather wearing int user<snip>



They can pry my goggles from my cold, dead pally hands! Well, at least until next tier.


Just think of the possibilities... one spec specializes in explosives, another in contraptions, the third is basically a healing spec with gadgets.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:08 pm
by bldavis
benebarba wrote:On the MM no pet front: I actually wonder if one of the reasons they don't want to do this may have to do with it becoming more 'simple' to play than if there *was* a pet to manage as well (imagine if they just took the MM rotation and buffed the damage of each spell to account for the lack of pet damage). To be honest, it always seemed to me like MM, and possibly even survival, *shouldn't* have a pet. But then again, I always thought hunters should be able to ride their big pets :P

well if you think about it
beast mastery is all about taming a wild beast and turning into an even bigger, even angrier beast
survival is (or should be) about surviving, traps, using a pet as a guardian/hunting companion, just being hard to kill
marksman makes me think of a sniper, so petless wouldnt be too bad for them

as for pallies
dwarves make sense as they were also part of the silver hand (not originally but soon after)
draenei - were taught the ways of the light by the naruu, and have always had warriors. some of the warriors just took to the light and became paladins

forsaken - maybe, but you need to remember the light hurts foresaken, as in causes them physical pain. would be GREAT for ret, but for prot/holy that just doesnt quite fit.
belfs....i just dont like the lore bs reason here either.
taurens, i actually like. its not holy light, but light from the sun they worship. you have tauren druids worshipping the moon, and you have sunwalkers revering the sun. it fits. in addition, you have always had tauren warriors, the sunwalkers are just the priest-y ones (kinda like draenei)

just one question though...
WHY ARE WE DISCUSSING THIS HERE?!?!?!

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:33 pm
by halabar
Mr B already fully assessed the situation, so terminal derail was commenced.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:39 pm
by Darielle
forsaken - maybe, but you need to remember the light hurts foresaken, as in causes them physical pain. would be GREAT for ret, but for prot/holy that just doesnt quite fit.


Being so dedicated to the Light that you work for the greater good to serve the Light, keep others alive and protect those you love in spite of potential hardship?

How does that NOT work for Prot/Holy, especially given the greater context of Forsaken Priests?
The Light does hurt undead, but that isn't to say that wielding the Light hurts the user if their willpower and faith is strong. That's entirely what Zeliek is about, and while he was an exception, it could have been properly spun that Forsaken are being created with greater control/faith/mental strength, retaining their morals/virtues/spirituality, still instilled with a desire to protect their loved ones and their fellows.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:06 pm
by Skye1013
Sabindeus wrote:I'm just a Warcraft purist. I still flip a table every time I see a BElf Paladin.

It must really grind your gears every time you see a non-NElf male druid...

halabar wrote:
Worldie wrote:Int plate would make much more sense if they introduced a 2nd class that uses it though.


Err... what class would that be?

Warmage.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:19 pm
by Skye1013
Darielle wrote:
forsaken - maybe, but you need to remember the light hurts foresaken, as in causes them physical pain. would be GREAT for ret, but for prot/holy that just doesnt quite fit.


Being so dedicated to the Light that you work for the greater good to serve the Light, keep others alive and protect those you love in spite of potential hardship?

How does that NOT work for Prot/Holy, especially given the greater context of Forsaken Priests?
The Light does hurt undead, but that isn't to say that wielding the Light hurts the user if their willpower and faith is strong. That's entirely what Zeliek is about, and while he was an exception, it could have been properly spun that Forsaken are being created with greater control/faith/mental strength, retaining their morals/virtues/spirituality, still instilled with a desire to protect their loved ones and their fellows.

That actually might have worked out in trying to "reform" the Forsaken after their deeds during LK. Sure, it was officially blamed on the RAS and Sylvanas "had no idea it was happening" *wink wink.*

Granted, if Sylvanas wasn't also willing to reform, that would likely be grounds for a new Forsaken leader.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:24 pm
by Amirya
Sabin has removed all tables from his residence, and replaced them with counters and shelves.