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Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:30 pm
by Skye1013
halabar wrote:Well, they are introducing 1 new rep per faction... :-)

I'll reserve judgment until it's for sure they're sticking with the dailies only method of rep gains. And even if that's the case, they'd also have to hide the VP gear behind those reps for it to even be a concern.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:32 pm
by halabar
bldavis wrote:which is fine, if you get the drops
what if you are like klaud and nika in previous tiers and teh bosses horde all of a slot and laugh at you?
that is when a valor piece is prob a good idea
plus if you have everything else upgraded already

if you havent guessed, i am stating several weeks/months down the road, not the week it comes out


sadly, most of the cursed slots aren't available from valor... (although it's a fair point I may be forced to get the poorly itemized valor legs if I can't ditch the 463 that I have).

and I think you may have missed my point. I'm not saying skip them entirely, but I am saying that a RL expecting everyone to be Rep-capped in 2 weeks or whatever is asking way too much. You took my original exaggeration of a certain RL and twisted it around to everyone who doesn't spend all their time maximizing a raid toon is a leech.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:45 pm
by halabar
Skye1013 wrote:
halabar wrote:Well, they are introducing 1 new rep per faction... :-)

I'll reserve judgment until it's for sure they're sticking with the dailies only method of rep gains. And even if that's the case, they'd also have to hide the VP gear behind those reps for it to even be a concern.


Well since you asked... I believe dailes are the only method, but there's an added twist. The rep gear is ilvl 496 boots and belts.

Image

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:59 pm
by Skye1013
Er...why is Mastery green on that?

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:02 pm
by halabar
Skye1013 wrote:Er...why is Mastery green on that?


dunno, ask wowinsider.... :arrow:

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:07 pm
by Sabindeus
They changed the way item tooltips work. They got rid of the Equip: text and now all secondary stats are listed the same as primaries but in green.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:19 pm
by Skye1013
But then... why isn't spirit in green text? Is it not considered a secondary stat?

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:29 pm
by Nooska
Not on current gear no, (its listed with primaries on current gear as well)

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:49 pm
by Worldie
Spirit is like the special kid of the stats: It's listed as a primary, but counts as secondary for reforging and itemization purposes.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:01 am
by Skye1013
Still don't know why they don't just combine spirit and hit into the same stat. As it is, there are only 2 int based classes that don't want to see spirit on their gear.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:45 am
by degre
bldavis wrote:idgara what you do
i was just saying if someone is still needing gear, and wants to purchase it, then they still need to use rep to get them
i am all for upgrading your best slot first, but once they are fully upgraded, why not fill in low slots?

and im sorry but this is YOU
that isnt the same for everyone

Same applies to your statements ;)

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:49 am
by Worldie
Skye1013 wrote:Still don't know why they don't just combine spirit and hit into the same stat. As it is, there are only 2 int based classes that don't want to see spirit on their gear.

Mainly because they want to keep the distinction between dps cloth and healer cloth, and dps accessories and healer accessories i believe.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:12 am
by Sabindeus
Skye1013 wrote:Still don't know why they don't just combine spirit and hit into the same stat. As it is, there are only 2 int based classes that don't want to see spirit on their gear.


Maybe then we can finally have holy paladins wear Str plate and get rid of the abomination that is Int plate.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:14 am
by Worldie
Int plate would make much more sense if they introduced a 2nd class that uses it though.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:52 am
by theckhd
Sabindeus wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:Still don't know why they don't just combine spirit and hit into the same stat. As it is, there are only 2 int based classes that don't want to see spirit on their gear.


Maybe then we can finally have holy paladins wear Str plate and get rid of the abomination that is Int plate.


How would combining spirit and hit fix that problem? They still wouldn't want str/hit gear.

Or are you saying that when they consolidate hit and spirit, they should go ahead and do the same with STR/Int, or re-work holy paladin mechanics (which is fair IMO - all it would take is a "Guarded by the Light"-esque passive that reads, "Strength bonuses from gear reward intellect instead").

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:54 am
by halabar
Worldie wrote:Int plate would make much more sense if they introduced a 2nd class that uses it though.


Err... what class would that be?

Getting rid of it would help clean up loot tables, but add to loot drama. But it doesn't make sense to get rid of int plate as you would still need int weapons and offhands, and they aren't going to do an int shield just for shammies.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:58 am
by theckhd
Darielle wrote:- It would be even more critical for a "hardcore" raider in the first few weeks becuase they ARE undergeared and they're going into Heroic modes. The ability to have had Shado-Pan trinkets at the end of week 2/3 when you've maybe had one/two chance(s) at your one raid trinket would have been pretty damn huge going into checks like Heroic Gara'jal. While they don't have to worry about people being ungemmed or unenchanted, they still have to squeeze dps.
- Raid enchants ARE gated by Rep. Having Dancing Steel, Jade Spirit is big.
- "Hardcore" raiders wind up in a position where they benefit hugely from maintaining multiple alts at as high as level as possible. Especially when Blizzard is happy to feed into situations where certain classes are hilariously good at trivialising mechanics that wind up being unbalanced otherwise. Unlike later tiers where you are at your worst case fully farmed from previous-tier-Heroic-BiS on your alts, this time you're not.
- Even Reps where you don't have a gear piece you can buy immediately award a 489 epic on hitting Exalted.


I think this is the main reason hardcore raiders are annoyed. It's the first few weeks that are frustrating, because there's so much to do and so little time to do it in. By now, a lot of us are past the valor gear (in fact, there are no more valor upgrades for my tanking set at all), so capping each week isn't critical because we're almost certain to go into 5.1 at the 3000 cap. I may still be picking up off-spec gear, but that's not super important to raid progression as I don't go Ret for anything that isn't already trivial.

Luckily, it lets up once the reps are finished. I can skip almost all of the dailies now, and just go back to do a few for achievements when they're available. Valor capping is still a bit of a pain if you plan on doing it on more than one character, though. Doing it on one is easy enough if you're doing all the LFRs available and clearing most of the raid instances, but it's still a pretty big time sink. Doing it on 2 takes some planning still, unless you have lots of time to throw at it (grind out cap on one, then take advantage of the +50% bonus on the other). I feel like they could buff valor by ~50% across the board and it would still feel a little slow.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:03 am
by halabar
theckhd wrote:Luckily, it lets up once the reps are finished. I can skip almost all of the dailies now, and just go back to do a few for achievements when they're available. Valor capping is still a bit of a pain if you plan on doing it on more than one character, though. Doing it on one is easy enough if you're doing all the LFRs available and clearing most of the raid instances, but it's still a pretty big time sink.


Yep, add in the poor itemization of much of the gear (my spriest wants haste, not all that damn mastery), and even if you don't have all the valor gear, if you've got at least 476, most of the valor items really aren't worth it.

Much better to go into 5.1 with 3000 valor, and be able to upgrade your 2 best items by 8 ilvls each right off the bat.

Now the question is, how are the DMF trinkets affected by the ilvl upgrade, and at least for dps classes should they be upgraded first?

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:54 am
by Stubblerump
Worldie wrote:Int plate would make much more sense if they introduced a 2nd class that uses it though.


Or go back to Int tanking for pallies.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:01 am
by bldavis
degre wrote:
bldavis wrote:and im sorry but this is YOU
that isnt the same for everyone

Same applies to your statements ;)

touche

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:32 am
by Sabindeus
theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:Still don't know why they don't just combine spirit and hit into the same stat. As it is, there are only 2 int based classes that don't want to see spirit on their gear.


Maybe then we can finally have holy paladins wear Str plate and get rid of the abomination that is Int plate.


How would combining spirit and hit fix that problem? They still wouldn't want str/hit gear.

Or are you saying that when they consolidate hit and spirit, they should go ahead and do the same with STR/Int, or re-work holy paladin mechanics (which is fair IMO - all it would take is a "Guarded by the Light"-esque passive that reads, "Strength bonuses from gear reward intellect instead").


All they would need is for all spells that currently scale with SP to instead scale with AP. Done.

Oh no, Holy Paladins' Crusader Strikes and Melee hit for non-irrelevant damage. Teh horrors.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:33 am
by Sabindeus
halabar wrote:
Worldie wrote:Int plate would make much more sense if they introduced a 2nd class that uses it though.


Err... what class would that be?

Getting rid of it would help clean up loot tables, but add to loot drama. But it doesn't make sense to get rid of int plate as you would still need int weapons and offhands, and they aren't going to do an int shield just for shammies.


Yeah this is true, having them move entirely to Str would mean that certain weapons/OHs are now relegated to 2 specs of one class, as opposed to 3 specs of 2 classes. I think this can be dealt with.

Actually, all they'd need to do is put a conversion the other way, such that healing spells scale from both AP and SP, and then Paladins could continue using SP weapons and Shaman shields. It would be a little awkward, less so than having Paladins use Int exclusively imo.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:47 am
by Shoju
I always favored moving Holy Paladins to Mail, and giving them something that upped their armor to plate levels while wearing it. It would be awkward as well, but what else can you do? Add another class that wears plate and uses int? What would that be?

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:49 am
by bldavis
UH dks?
make frost the str melee spec, and UH more of a ranged/melee class that is more focused on casting deathcoil even more - think an unholy retadin, with deathcoil replacing exorcism and giving them a judgement - esque ranged ability

some how i doubt that would ever happen, due to all the UH dks going WTF MAN WHY YOU FUCKING WITH US AGAIN!

i would point out that switching healadins to mail would put 3 specs on int mail, but than again there is agil leather
2 specs of monks, 3 rogue specs, and 2 druid specs.... :roll:

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:52 am
by Worldie
Shoju wrote:I always favored moving Holy Paladins to Mail, and giving them something that upped their armor to plate levels while wearing it. It would be awkward as well, but what else can you do? Add another class that wears plate and uses int? What would that be?

Adding another class (no idea what, blizzard duty to invent one :P ) that uses Int plate is probably the best choice. Making holy pala wear mail would create an awkard situation where pala tier would have to be both mail and plate.