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Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:49 pm
by bldavis
all i would want is something like the amber things for klaxxi, eggs for OotCS, and harvesting for tillers
i guess the caches count as that for golden lotus, but they give basically nothing for rep(150 i think), where as harvesting is 100/200/300 per day depending on rep level, and eggs are 500
(i dont know what the klaxxi turn in is, i havent finished one)

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:55 pm
by KysenMurrin
Klaxxi Dread Amber Shards are a very rare drop with a small reward, hardly worth mentioning.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:00 pm
by Darielle
It really comes down to balance. The Klaxxi work well up to Revered because you do the storylines, do a couple of days of dailies and then you get new story tidbits with the new Paragons. That's fine.

After that, you get into "grindy" as far as Exalted goes, but fewer people have that as a goal.

With GL, you have a one-two quest intro, leading into dailies that give very small returns, which makes the "repetition" or "grind" more noticeable. If they also had a more involved questline at Friendly, followed by a more significant questline at Honored that got you maybe 10 or so quests around the place, then it would feel more involving.

Another aspect is also HOW the story/daily lines is done. With the Klaxxi, as you're unlocking Paragons, you view different personalities and stuff like that, which helps, you feed the Kunchong, it grows, you use it on a rampage, Wind Reaver guy lets you go up and powerbomb down, etc. With GL, not so much. The couple of quests that involve the personal evil guy in the Halls is about it, aside from that it's a bunch of mobs like any other mob.

I think that's a bit of a reflection on the act that the Mogu themselves don't really come across very well; it would have been a great opportunity for a storyline that involved treachery, dark magics and excessive cruelty as is their nature (think Mogu capturing a bunch of people in battle, beheading them in front of your very eyes, putting thier heads on spikes as you're powerless to stop it, using dark magics on their corpses type affair). Instead, the Mogu are like this IDEA of a cruel, overlordy race that you don't really experience, you just get fed bits of info on how bad they are while they do nothing special, so they just feel like overdramatised and incompetent remodeled Draenei.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:27 pm
by benebarba
Darielle wrote:I think that's a bit of a reflection on the act that the Mogu themselves don't really come across very well; it would have been a great opportunity for a storyline that involved treachery, dark magics and excessive cruelty as is their nature (think Mogu capturing a bunch of people in battle, beheading them in front of your very eyes, putting thier heads on spikes as you're powerless to stop it, using dark magics on their corpses type affair). Instead, the Mogu are like this IDEA of a cruel, overlordy race that you don't really experience, you just get fed bits of info on how bad they are while they do nothing special, so they just feel like overdramatised and incompetent remodeled Draenei.

The following may be better in a different thread, but I agree.

After doing the lorewalkers stuff, this really is a big point and not just for the Mogu. I had this chat with a guildie: what the Lorewalkers tell you and what the quests represent are pretty stark contrasts for some of the races. Some of the 'mob' races: the Yongol, the saurok and the hozen you don't really get to see much other than what is presented in the Lorewalkers but they seem to line up pretty well. The Mogu are built up to be these uber baddies, but they seem just incompetent buffoons who managed to get to power somehow. I'm pretty certain if they had mustaches they'd twirl them. I feel like the Pandaren fall flat at 90 when you are doing what seem like more minor tasks than the stuff you'd done while leveling too: the Shado Pan (Uber protectors of Pandaria) apparently can't reclaim minor footholds even with the assistance of the very heroes who killed Deathwing, The Lich King and assorted other baddies. The Golden Lotus seem to be in a similar issue in the Vale.

Maybe it's me, but I felt that most of the dailies at level 90 seemed less 'epic' than most of the stuff I did while leveling. Saving villages, establishing alliance footholds, winning hearts and minds and what not certainly was more enjoyable than 'slowing' the march of the mogu/mantid by offering up some minor inconveniences that provide no discernible change.

Needless to say I feel like the grind comes less from the action of doing quests on a daily basis and more from what seems like a development choice of making the results of your actions essentially invisible (and quest series nearly identical) for the sake of gameplay.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:44 pm
by bldavis
WARNING - inc wall o' text
and i agree with brekkie, this belongs in the lore thread, but w/e

well we are pretty big badasses
i mean we took down the leader of the scourge - at the height of his power AND in his throne room, where he is the most powerful!
we have ended not just 1, but TWO dragon aspects (ok ok , we ended one, we assisted thrall with the other)
we have taken down the brood mother of the black dragon flight 3 times now? and her brother twice
we have taken down 2 elemental lords (MC ragnaros was merely summoned to our realm, we sent him back, it was in firelands that we killed him finally)
hmm lets see....
we took down 2? Eradar lords of the burning legion ...no 3, archimode, KJ, and Jarraxis, granted 2 were leaders of the Eradar, and Jarraxis was an officer in the army but still, they are powerful demons.

we have raided the scourge's flying citidel Naxxramas TWICE
we have ended Illidan, Kael'thas, and Lady Vash'j during their reign of power

these are all pretty big baddies
not to mention 3 old gods have been killed
one by the titans, which in turn created the sha, and 2 by US
all we need now is an old god on EK and we have all the current continents covered! (crap, i just spoiled Garrosh's corruption, it happens while in UC calling Sylvanis a bitch again) - btw i will be laughing my ass off if this happens

so all in all, we are pretty bad ass
we are the heroes of legend
i mean you figure most of the normal populous is a farmer, trader, blacksmith, etc
not everyone is a super powerful being like the player character is
in the lore, the player characters are rare and really REALLY powerful

maybe this says something about how powerful the sha truly are?
they need a group of some of the most powerful beings on the planet to take them down, mere fighters like the shado-pan monks arent enough
they can hold the sha back, but cannot defeat it or even advance on it until we have a concentrated strike

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:31 pm
by Skye1013
bldavis wrote:i guess the caches count as that for golden lotus, but they give basically nothing for rep(150 i think)

Caches have two possible rep items, a rare and an epic. Granted, even getting both in a single cache that's only ~600 rep.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:46 pm
by Fetzie
Jarraxis was an officer in the army but still


He one-shotted one of the most powerful demonologists the Alliance had to offer, and then proceeded to get his ass kicked by us. That alone shows how powerful our characters actually are when compared to even the best NPCs.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:35 pm
by Darielle
He one-shotted one of the most powerful demonologists the Alliance had to offer, and then proceeded to get his ass kicked by us. That alone shows how powerful our characters actually are when compared to even the best NPCs.


Let's be fair, in all these cases it's suspension that causes game mechanics to overdo "lore". "Lore" may have dictated an epic battle, but given that they can't erally do that in the middle of a raid, they had to play the "But I'm in charge .... hrrrgk".

Kinda like how the Lich King shows up and all the Lore figures sit there sipping their tea.

In the wider context of lore, our characters aren't all THAT powerful. In every single major figure, while for game purposes, we did the grunt work, in lore purposes, we were either helping or being helped by other figures. Illidan involved Akama and Maiev. KJ involved Kalec and Anveena. Archimonde involved Tyrande and the Wisps. Lich King had LolTirion. Malygos had the Red Dragonflight. Rag had DROOD POWER. etc. We're not run of the mill, but character power level is being a bit overstated. Some things we did ourselves, but even that's game implement logic.

they need a group of some of the most powerful beings on the planet to take them down, mere fighters like the shado-pan monks arent enough
they can hold the sha back, but cannot defeat it or even advance on it until we have a concentrated strike


According to Lore, the Sha were under control until we messed it up. All we're really doing is doing exactly what the Shado-Pan already did before we superfed the Sha.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:30 pm
by halabar
Darielle wrote:
they need a group of some of the most powerful beings on the planet to take them down, mere fighters like the shado-pan monks arent enough
they can hold the sha back, but cannot defeat it or even advance on it until we have a concentrated strike


According to Lore, the Sha were under control until we messed it up. All we're really doing is doing exactly what the Shado-Pan already did before we superfed the Sha.


I don't buy that. It's not our fault the mantid race is corrupted, and there were many problems running amok long before we showed up. Garrosh's rage may make things worse before we put him down to make everything better, but it wasn't all roses before we showed up.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:54 pm
by Skye1013
Only real example I can think of it being our fault is when we caused the destruction of the statue at Jade Temple. Now, I'll be the first to admit I don't follow the lore extremely closely, but everywhere else it just looked like we were helping clean up messes already in progress to gain favor with the factions there.

Excepting maybe the Vale, since we convinced them to reopen it, which allowed the Mogu back in (though a gate is hardly an obstruction for the Mantids, unless the closed gate represented some magical seal that was broken on the entire zone.)

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:53 am
by degre
Sagara wrote:Sounds logical to try and promoe cross-activity. More content, so longer play time before we get bored... Now did they over-do it? I'd be inclined to agree - 4 reps is way too much when you have the opportunity to do all 4.

Maybe some sort of weekly cap for rep gains would be appropriate. Or simply a weekly daily quest cap.

Why cap it? If some people have the time and will to do dailies every day let them do. You don't have time to do all? Pick one and start there, with time you'll do them all, if you want.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:08 am
by Sagara
degre wrote:
Sagara wrote:Sounds logical to try and promoe cross-activity. More content, so longer play time before we get bored... Now did they over-do it? I'd be inclined to agree - 4 reps is way too much when you have the opportunity to do all 4.

Maybe some sort of weekly cap for rep gains would be appropriate. Or simply a weekly daily quest cap.

Why cap it? If some people have the time and will to do dailies every day let them do. You don't have time to do all? Pick one and start there, with time you'll do them all, if you want.


Let me amend that - when the opportuniy is there and a potential use exists, people will do it as if they were forced.
What we need is a cap on the rewards you can get, like the 150 first dailies of a given week grant rep, valor and baubles. The rest just grants gold, and why not Justice (even though that's pretty useless...).

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:48 am
by Klaudandus
Sagara wrote:
degre wrote:
Sagara wrote:Sounds logical to try and promoe cross-activity. More content, so longer play time before we get bored... Now did they over-do it? I'd be inclined to agree - 4 reps is way too much when you have the opportunity to do all 4.

Maybe some sort of weekly cap for rep gains would be appropriate. Or simply a weekly daily quest cap.

Why cap it? If some people have the time and will to do dailies every day let them do. You don't have time to do all? Pick one and start there, with time you'll do them all, if you want.


Let me amend that - when the opportuniy is there and a potential use exists, people will do it as if they were forced.
What we need is a cap on the rewards you can get, like the 150 first dailies of a given week grant rep, valor and baubles. The rest just grants gold, and why not Justice (even though that's pretty useless...).


There is already a cap of sorts, the number of total dailies you can do in a week with a given faction. The point of the cap would be benrficial if a secondary method of earning rep existed. Just to keep dailies more attractive.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:28 am
by melisandyr
I think that an elegant solution to this would be that you have two separate gear progression paths.

Either: (i) you can buy VP gear that week
or
(ii) you can get loot from bosses in normal or heroic modes

Both (i) and (ii) should be able to get lower ilevel loot from LFR, as now.

That way, there's progression for solo players under (i), knowing that it will take many months to get epics on a par with even normal mode.

Players who would usually choose (ii) could swap out for a week to pick up gear to fill a gap that never dropped, but would loose looting rights from 16 or so bosses. Likely to be much less attractive, and would separate the gear progression paths.

Clearly, some of the practicalities of making a system like this work would require extensive development, but in theory, wouldn't it make all of the player base happy?

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:09 am
by degre
Sagara wrote:
degre wrote:
Sagara wrote:Sounds logical to try and promoe cross-activity. More content, so longer play time before we get bored... Now did they over-do it? I'd be inclined to agree - 4 reps is way too much when you have the opportunity to do all 4.

Maybe some sort of weekly cap for rep gains would be appropriate. Or simply a weekly daily quest cap.

Why cap it? If some people have the time and will to do dailies every day let them do. You don't have time to do all? Pick one and start there, with time you'll do them all, if you want.


Let me amend that - when the opportuniy is there and a potential use exists, people will do it as if they were forced.
What we need is a cap on the rewards you can get, like the 150 first dailies of a given week grant rep, valor and baubles. The rest just grants gold, and why not Justice (even though that's pretty useless...).

Why? If people are willing to go the distance, let them...

There are only two reasons why you would want to place a cap is because you feel compelled and can't stop. You feel like you have to do it and can't stop. I don't see any other reason for imposing an unnecessary cap, as currently you have already a system in place and is called will, it works that whenever you've had enough, you stop.

Well, another comes to mind, you might actually stop and simply being annoyed at other who have more time, and I don't see this either as a good excuse for placing a cap.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:18 am
by Passionario
degre wrote:I don't see any other reason for imposing an unnecessary cap, as currently you have already a system in place and is called will, it works that whenever you've had enough, you stop.


Peer pressure is an important factor, as well. If you're not doing everything you can to improve your character, you're the lazy weakest link that is letting the other 9/24 people in your raid team down. And in the absence of artificial caps, you will never be doing enough.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:23 am
by Sagara
I think you're mostly right. But then again, this is precisely the reason we went from a "valor for first dungeons each day" to "valor for the first seven dungeons each week" to "fck this, you always get valor, only more for the first each day" (and people are STILL complaining).

This is simply following the current trend: you can reach most meaningful rewards without pushing too hard, but, if you happen to really push some content or other, you get extra fun/cosmetic thingies.

Right now, PVE-side, it works for dungeons (achieve, less valor), challenge modes (less valor, mount, title, transmog), LFR (more chances at coin loot, less valor). The only two places where it doesn't work yet are dailies and raiding.

As an aside, to make it happen in raiding, one should be able to re-try downed bosses of a specific week for some reason (not loot-related) like trying an achievement, training, or a little bit extra valor.

Daily-side, there is no limit to how far you can push, and the reward remains linear - always valor, rep and baubles. The only "true" limit, is the amount of dailies available in a single day. That's around 50 AFAIK. Per day. Eeeeeevery day.

That's mostly what I find odd - the pressure to do as many dailies as possible is much higher than, say, doing a second LFR, or an umptenth dungeon. Lines were drawn for pretty much every type of content. The absence of one for dailies is a very weird situation, the consequences of which can be read troughout this topic.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:53 am
by halabar
Sagara wrote:That's mostly what I find odd - the pressure to do as many dailies as possible is much higher than, say, doing a second LFR, or an umptenth dungeon. Lines were drawn for pretty much every type of content. The absence of one for dailies is a very weird situation, the consequences of which can be read troughout this topic.


Passionario wrote:
degre wrote:I don't see any other reason for imposing an unnecessary cap, as currently you have already a system in place and is called will, it works that whenever you've had enough, you stop.


Peer pressure is an important factor, as well. If you're not doing everything you can to improve your character, you're the lazy weakest link that is letting the other 9/24 people in your raid team down. And in the absence of artificial caps, you will never be doing enough.


This.

Because if your dps is sub-RL-expectations-because-the-boss-didn't-die, then the obvious solution is that you need to be exalted with all the factions, because that naturally makes your dps better. :roll: Also if the boss doesn't die it's your fault because you spent time on alts (even if the RL has some of his own).

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:13 am
by Sagara
Sad, but true to a point (replace RL by *whatever loudmouth you have in your raid*).
And sometimes that means the very player forces himself past reason.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:23 pm
by bldavis
halabar wrote:This.

Because if your dps is sub-RL-expectations-because-the-boss-didn't-die, then the obvious solution is that you need to be exalted with all the factions, because that naturally makes your dps better. :roll: Also if the boss doesn't die it's your fault because you spent time on alts (even if the RL has some of his own).

actually yes, if there is gear from those factions you have not unlocked yet which is an upgrade which MAY up your dps through pure stats

gear is the easiest way to try and up dps
more gear = more AP/SP = hard hitting abilities
once gear is out of the way, you can cross that off the list and work on rotations and such

but then again if you are just out to be a leech, of course you dont give a shit about that

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:32 pm
by halabar
bldavis wrote:
halabar wrote:This.

Because if your dps is sub-RL-expectations-because-the-boss-didn't-die, then the obvious solution is that you need to be exalted with all the factions, because that naturally makes your dps better. :roll: Also if the boss doesn't die it's your fault because you spent time on alts (even if the RL has some of his own).

actually yes, if there is gear from those factions you have not unlocked yet which is an upgrade which MAY up your dps through pure stats

gear is the easiest way to try and up dps
more gear = more AP/SP = hard hitting abilities
once gear is out of the way, you can cross that off the list and work on rotations and such

but then again if you are just out to be a leech, of course you dont give a shit about that


lol, just lol

so what YOU are saying, is that I should tell my wife to F off, skip work when I can, and do whatever else is necessary to valor and rep cap.

So even if I'm the third best geared toon in the raid, that's not enough? And I'm sure as not going to give the guy who is the mage in my raid a hard time about any gear when I know what time he does put in, and what stuff he's dealing with in real life.

Perhaps I should troll the PK armoury and see just how geared YOUR raid is.. might be interesting.

Gonna update my sig, I actually want that bear rug right now.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:40 pm
by Darielle
once gear is out of the way, you can cross that off the list and work on rotations and such


Who actually looks at optimisation as a step by step affair?

If "buttons" is an issue, and the raid strat could be improved/tweaked, all optimisation can be done in one go for anyone actually looking to optimise. Quite probably done in one hour. The raid strat alone can most likely up damage by 20% for very little actual effort.

Only real example I can think of it being our fault is when we caused the destruction of the statue at Jade Temple. Now, I'll be the first to admit I don't follow the lore extremely closely, but everywhere else it just looked like we were helping clean up messes already in progress to gain favor with the factions there.

Excepting maybe the Vale, since we convinced them to reopen it, which allowed the Mogu back in (though a gate is hardly an obstruction for the Mantids, unless the closed gate represented some magical seal that was broken on the entire zone.)


The way they've done it is to make things like a timeline, so while it may not feel like it, all of those thigns are linked. Take Taran Zhu for example. Our actions in Jade Forest pushed him, when we're in Kun Lai he starts succumbing to Hate, and in Townlong we've freed him and he's vanquishing the Sha.

The Mantid don't follow this - SHek'zeer was apparently insane even before the Paragons were being preserved, but that's not really something the Shado Pan had control over.

Why? If people are willing to go the distance, let them...

There are only two reasons why you would want to place a cap is because you feel compelled and can't stop. You feel like you have to do it and can't stop. I don't see any other reason for imposing an unnecessary cap, as currently you have already a system in place and is called will, it works that whenever you've had enough, you stop.

Well, another comes to mind, you might actually stop and simply being annoyed at other who have more time, and I don't see this either as a good excuse for placing a cap.


And yet, many things in the game are no longer specifically because the game design incentivising something promoted activities which eroded people's interest in the game in the long run. The "if people are willing to, let them" thing just doesn't work out.

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:37 pm
by bldavis
halabar wrote:
bldavis wrote:
halabar wrote:This.

Because if your dps is sub-RL-expectations-because-the-boss-didn't-die, then the obvious solution is that you need to be exalted with all the factions, because that naturally makes your dps better. :roll: Also if the boss doesn't die it's your fault because you spent time on alts (even if the RL has some of his own).

actually yes, if there is gear from those factions you have not unlocked yet which is an upgrade which MAY up your dps through pure stats

gear is the easiest way to try and up dps
more gear = more AP/SP = hard hitting abilities
once gear is out of the way, you can cross that off the list and work on rotations and such

but then again if you are just out to be a leech, of course you dont give a shit about that


lol, just lol

so what YOU are saying, is that I should tell my wife to F off, skip work when I can, and do whatever else is necessary to valor and rep cap.

So even if I'm the third best geared toon in the raid, that's not enough? And I'm sure as not going to give the guy who is the mage in my raid a hard time about any gear when I know what time he does put in, and what stuff he's dealing with in real life.

Perhaps I should troll the PK armoury and see just how geared YOUR raid is.. might be interesting.

Gonna update my sig, I actually want that bear rug right now.

go ahead, check our armory
we have had one raid, we NEVER claimed to be hardcore raiders, and you might want to see just how much gear i have made for my guildies
i wasnt saying you have to abandon your social life, i was just saying while you are playing and not raiding you should put in all the work you can into getting better gear

i know we suck, but if i can help lessen the gear need, well maybe that will help get a few more points of dps that might mean the difference between a wipe and a boss kill.

are you done viewing everything as a personal attack?


during raids, yes by all means adjust strat, but that is done in raid, my point was stuff you do outside of raid hours


and honestly, limited play time, and gear being locked behind factions is all the more reason why we should have multiple ways of getting rep
im sorry if that makes sense :roll:

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:16 pm
by halabar
bldavis wrote:we have had one raid, we NEVER claimed to be hardcore raiders, and you might want to see just how much gear i have made for my guildies
i wasnt saying you have to abandon your social life, i was just saying while you are playing and not raiding you should put in all the work you can into getting better gear

i know we suck, but if i can help lessen the gear need, well maybe that will help get a few more points of dps that might mean the difference between a wipe and a boss kill.

are you done viewing everything as a personal attack?

during raids, yes by all means adjust strat, but that is done in raid, my point was stuff you do outside of raid hours


You certainly try to act like a hardcore.

So working on any alt or farm or pet battle is an afront to my raid group, meaning that I haven't devoted myself fully. Forgive me in actually playing a game.

And if I see things as a personal attack, it might just be that you seem to take your "hardcore" stances in reply to my posts. They were amusing, now they are just tiring...

Re: Valor reward discussion

PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:18 pm
by halabar
Back on topic (sort of)... saw a good idea on another forum.

Trade 100 Lesser Coins for 1000 rep of the faction of your choice. Provides another use for those, and an additional rep source.