Patch 5.1

[Klaudandus]

I think the big problem is the shared lockout.

If the only change was that 25man raids were dropping lvl B gear, where as 10man raids were dropping lvl A gear -- but gear coming from both raid modes can be fully upgraded to lvl D (and not beyond that) then everyone would be ok

It's the shared lockouts that cause the issues because it means that the asian guilds can acquire and upgrade much faster than their amero-euro brethren

[Darielle]

the consensus 10/25 in Cata and as it is now is very fine for me.
with same loot table, it let everyone really choose wich format the fit better :
-10 for more social fun, less stress and "might be" easier raid management
-25 for the glory, at is it "suppossed" to be more challenging...

The problem as Blizzard has actually recognised is that none of this is actually true.

What they wanted was an environment were people could do what they wanted.
What they wound up creating did not allow for that.

Now, there is only a 0.0001% chance that this will ever make U.S (KR/CN have had their different rules for a while now, whether it came to double lockouts and what not without affecting US/EU). What we'll probably see in US/EU is them tinkering with drop chances or convenience stuff a bit more, but in a discussion like this, it really should be noted what the problem actually is.

It's the shared lockouts that cause the issues because it means that the asian guilds can acquire and upgrade much faster than their amero-euro brethren

I don't see how that's actually an issue. WoWprogress or whatever will just have a T15(Asia) tab and noone else would need care.

[Klaudandus]

Yeah, and I did mention earlier that wowprogress and the other sites could just disavow the asian guild's progress due to PELs

I still don't see how that makes it easier for the amero-euro guilds to swallow tho.

[KysenMurrin]

It's also pretty bad for the people within the regions where it goes live, where people who are able to raid both will have a significant advantage in loot availability (and people will feel compelled to raid more than they'd prefer, to keep up). It's not just about counting world firsts...

[Worldie]

You forget asian people are by nature more farmer oriented (as proved by the kind of MMOs that go well there) and will be happy to raid twice the time per week.

[Klaudandus]

and then you'll have them dying over at the internet cafes

[Skye1013]

As if that wouldn't happen anyway...

[Klaudandus]

Oh, i know... I am just being extra snarky =p

[Shoju]

The biggest thing that I will point to in 10m raiding that just can't be replicated in 25m raiding is the impact that a death can have on success or failure. when someone dies in 10m, that's a pretty huge blow. Lose a healer in 10m, and it's probably over. Lose a DPS, and you risk not beating an enrage timer. Losing a tank is harder to quantify. I might say that due to the way that 25m damage is managed VS 10m damage, losing a tank in 25m could sometimes be more detrimental than 10m. (that is pretty fight dependent though)

These things are already replicated in 25-man, just fyi.

I disagree that a single death in 25 man is as costly as it is in 10 man. But that is getting away from the discussion at hand really.

[Nooska]

The single death in 10 man is more costly for 2 reasons, its a bigger part of the team, and combat resses are limited to 1 on 10 man, so if 1 person dies, its all over and you often have to ress that one person because of the big percentage of the team it is.

[theckhd]

The single death in 10 man is more costly for 2 reasons, its a bigger part of the team, and combat resses are limited to 1 on 10 man, so if 1 person dies, its all over and you often have to ress that one person because of the big percentage of the team it is.

Except that on any sufficiently difficult progression fight, the DPS check is hard enough that if anyone dies, a 25-man wipes and tries again too.

The sentiment is probably true for normal mode, and for the easier heroic bosses. But it really isn't for any boss that matters in the progression race.

[benebarba]

The single death in 10 man is more costly for 2 reasons, its a bigger part of the team, and combat resses are limited to 1 on 10 man, so if 1 person dies, its all over and you often have to ress that one person because of the big percentage of the team it is.

Except that on any sufficiently difficult progression fight, the DPS check is hard enough that if anyone dies, a 25-man wipes and tries again too.

The sentiment is probably true for normal mode, and for the easier heroic bosses. But it really isn't for any boss that matters in the progression race.

I actually always wondered why there was a different number of combat rezzes allowed (allow one or two in both sizes, I say). Yeah, I can see where somoene might see logic in the 'well, we can't give em half a rez, and there are 2.5 times more people!' reason... basically because it assumes the rate of failure per person is constant. But I'm not convinced that is actually a realisitic assumption.

This is further enforced by the fact that if your DPS checks or mechanics are sized hard enough at either size, 1 DPS going down is going to be a wipe. A healer or tank going down is probably a wipe under most circumstances on a sufficiently difficult encounter.

[Klaudandus]

Make it 2 brez for 10man or make it 2 guaranteed brez in 25man and the the 3rd rez is a toss-up =P

[benebarba]

Make it 2 brez for 10man or make it 2 guaranteed brez in 25man and the the 3rd rez is a toss-up =P

That would be hilarious.

maybe we can opt to spend all these stupid lesser charms on trying to convince our healers to toss out another one?

[djlar]

Back on Wotlk was the norm to run both 10 and 25s in the same week...

10 man guilds did the 10 and puggoed the 25, while 25m guilds just splitted the group in 2 and did the runs (extra 5 peeps maybe pug a 10)

Now we are used to only run one raid a week, period.. (well it's gonna be 3 next week), and about that, I don't think I could do:

3 - 25m normal/h raids
3 - 10m normal/h raids
3 LFRs.. (which I think will be 5)

So that's possibly 11 raids in one week... considering maybe 4 hours per normal/h raids and 3 hours on LFR = want to buy another life..