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Patch 5.1

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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Treck » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:50 am

How would reducing the ammount of people in a raid fix things?
There are always going to be guilds out there with the "wrong" ammount of people.
People are just saying "change the raidsizes" cause the grass is always greener.

I think 10man and 25man work pretty well together.
10man and 25man are NOT the same, in any way, even listing 10man and 25man together in the same sort of progress is fucking retarded, they are 2 different sports.
Its easy to say that if they would make it all over again, they would do it differently, problem is that you can get away with anything saying that, and it has 0 impact on anything.

Some people say they want 20man cause then its easy with balancing cause its just twice as many as 10man, so you just put x2 on everything right?
But no, its never going to be the same, more people means more complexity in the raid.
It is two different sizes, 2 different games people are playing, stop trying to make them equal and start making them evolve their own way.

Not gonna go into a discussion about 10man vs 25man and what is harder, but just getting together 25people should almost give you a reward.
I honestly liked the ICC approach.
There were 25man for the 25man guilds, and there were 10mans for those who didnt care for the whole "server best" or anything, it was just to kill time and have fun with friends.
I know its bad to generalize, but pretty much everyone I know who plays 10man, plays it cause they enjoy the simplicity of having 10 close friends playing, rather than be in a noisy 25man guild with people you dont really know or care for.
If that is the case, why do you care about 10man beeing harder OR easier than 25man? thats like complaining archery is much easier when you are bowling.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:55 am

Mozen wrote:One thing that should be known while reading this particular announcement, is that the TW agent is only a distributor, they have no rights to touch any part of the game. Unlike China, where the government have a say in any and all publications, Taiwan is a free country not unlike the US or Britain. We don't do stupid things like patching up Patchwork. Anyways, the point is that any and all changes to game mechanisms have to come from Blizzard US. They may accept input from the TW agent, but ultimately they make all the decisions.

I wouldn't be surprised if a few hours later the same announcement goes up on the US and EU sites. Although some people are speculating that Blizzard is using the Asian realms as a test-bed first and they won't touch US/EU realms until this proves effective.

Yeah, the thing that's got me wondering on this all is the point that 25 man will become harder. That requires rebalancing the raid content, not a small task. Would they work on 7 different difficulties (LFR, 10N, 10H, 25N, 25H, TW25N, TW25H) of the same instance?
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Mozen » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:01 am

You know, there is a strong following on the TW realms behind one theory: that the only thing to change is the 10-man content & loot on Asian realms. They just nerf the 10N and perhaps 10H content right from the start for the Asian realms, and apply their gear scaling technology to the loot to make them a lower item level to start with.

This way, the race to World Firsts will more or less be "fair" even if the US/EU realms don't change.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Nooska » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:10 am

Just to go the other way from Treck here - pretty much everyone I know that goes for 10 mans does so because its a bitch recruiting and keeping a roster 25 man viable, unless you are already en established good (raid)guild (even having been one and having changed at some point - wrath due to GM/RL stopping in our case), there are simply too few people on a lot of realms to have more than one 25 man - if even that (in the case of several 10 man guilds).

The format chose has less to do with how hardcore or casual you are, and more to do with how many people you can reliably recruit (I'll point to Paragon, even if their recruitment problem is more than likely self-induced by the finnish required).
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Fenris » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:25 am

About the 10/25

if it comes to Eu/US: damn you blizzard,my guild struggled to survive as 25 up to the end of normal-DS,now that we have crashed down to 10m (like most of the guilds out there) we get changes...I could be less annoyed if not for all the "10m vs 25m is fine" BS we got during cataclysm...

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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby degre » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:28 am

Sorry for snipping your post, just keeping the bits I'm replying to.
Treck wrote:10man and 25man are NOT the same, in any way, even listing 10man and 25man together in the same sort of progress is fucking retarded, they are 2 different sports.
+
If that is the case, why do you care about 10man beeing harder OR easier than 25man? thats like complaining archery is much easier when you are bowling.

To be fair, progress being listed together is the only reason I find annoying that 10men are way easier.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:32 am

To be utterly honest, this whole 10 vs 25 story is stupid from the get-go. Because it implies that what the other guys does is SO important that you're willing to flip-flop on game issues because of it.

Blizzard. Make up your mind, then let this thing drop. Dead. Deader than dead.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Shoju » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:44 am

Treck wrote:How would reducing the ammount of people in a raid fix things?
There are always going to be guilds out there with the "wrong" ammount of people.
People are just saying "change the raidsizes" cause the grass is always greener.

I think 10man and 25man work pretty well together.
10man and 25man are NOT the same, in any way, even listing 10man and 25man together in the same sort of progress is fucking retarded, they are 2 different sports.
Its easy to say that if they would make it all over again, they would do it differently, problem is that you can get away with anything saying that, and it has 0 impact on anything.

Some people say they want 20man cause then its easy with balancing cause its just twice as many as 10man, so you just put x2 on everything right?
But no, its never going to be the same, more people means more complexity in the raid.
It is two different sizes, 2 different games people are playing, stop trying to make them equal and start making them evolve their own way.

Not gonna go into a discussion about 10man vs 25man and what is harder, but just getting together 25people should almost give you a reward.
I honestly liked the ICC approach.
There were 25man for the 25man guilds, and there were 10mans for those who didnt care for the whole "server best" or anything, it was just to kill time and have fun with friends.
I know its bad to generalize, but pretty much everyone I know who plays 10man, plays it cause they enjoy the simplicity of having 10 close friends playing, rather than be in a noisy 25man guild with people you dont really know or care for.
If that is the case, why do you care about 10man beeing harder OR easier than 25man? thats like complaining archery is much easier when you are bowling.


I was a 10m raider, and for a short time, we were top horde 10m guild on server. So, I wanted to respond to this.

I like that 10m and 25m drop the same ilvl. I don't feel like I'm being treated as a second class citizen. Treck is right though, 10m and 25m are just not the same, and moving to 20m will not make it easier to "make them the same". The biggest thing that I will point to in 10m raiding that just can't be replicated in 25m raiding is the impact that a death can have on success or failure. when someone dies in 10m, that's a pretty huge blow. Lose a healer in 10m, and it's probably over. Lose a DPS, and you risk not beating an enrage timer. Losing a tank is harder to quantify. I might say that due to the way that 25m damage is managed VS 10m damage, losing a tank in 25m could sometimes be more detrimental than 10m. (that is pretty fight dependent though)

I don't know if I agree that 25m just means more complexity to the raid. While that can certainly be the case, I believe that OS10 3D showed us that 10m can be downright ridiculous. I will give you that setting up a 25m raid is more complex than setting up a 10m raid. That was one of the things I liked.

I will also say that I agree, one of the appeals of 10m raiding was the fact that I was raiding with 9 people that I knew, that I wanted to raid with. it was smaller, it was more intimate. I didn't have to have rules about who could speak over mumble because of the size of the raid.

I would agree that 25m should have "something" as a reward for being 25 people.

I care about it being harder or easier, because when there is a notable difficulty difference between the two, there is an idea that the easier should somehow be rewarded with inferior items. The solve to that, was making 10 and 25 share a lockout.

I'm even ok with 25m getting more loot because there is 2.5 times as many people. In Cata though, (especially FL and DS with the shared loot drops) it made some things simply non existent for 10m groups. I still want to scream at blizzard over the trinkets in DS. To me, that was the epitome of failed design in Loot for 10m. I like that they do try and make sure that 10m is more difficult than it was at times in the past. I know that it will never be perfect. I know that there will always be times when the balance of difficulty swings one way or another. It's the way fight mechanics work.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:56 am

So we are back to pugging one lockout after running the other with the guild? wonderful...
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:38 am

...and mmo-champ just reported it... I had seen some threads on the us forums, but this will get the ball rolling
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby halabar » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:39 am

Klaudandus wrote:...and mmo-champ just reported it... I had seen some threads on the us forums, but this will get the ball rolling


/popcorn at all the old gripes/hates/biases/elitism/etc that's pouring forth.

Way to go Blizz at setting your playerbase against each other again.

Favorite response now is "This will require me to run the other lockout as well to keep pace on progression".
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:47 am

People aiming for the top ranking do feel like that, and are somewhat justified. A 6 ilvl difference in an item might mean 50 extra dps, now consider a 10 minute fight... *Note: Numbers pulled out of my ass*

I still don't buy the whole elitism/25mans should get better stuff than 10mans but I am willing to give them wanting to have the competitive edge and their gripe at being prevented of getting just that in light of the changes to KR, CN and TW.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:55 am

Can someone clear something up for me on the whole 10/25 man thing?
(this is only slightly tongue in cheek)

If greater reward is deserved for getting more people together, then why to people who are not raid leaders, guild officers, etc. get a chance at that extra loot? From what I hear from pretty much everyone I know who raids, there is one constant in raiding: most folks just show up at the appointed time and do what they are told. (granted some may do more outside, but that's irrelevant to this discussion since that's independant of number of people)
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:56 am

Klaudandus wrote:People aiming for the top ranking do feel like that, and are somewhat justified. A 6 ilvl difference in an item might mean 50 extra dps, now consider a 10 minute fight... *Note: Numbers pulled out of my ass*

I still don't buy the whole elitism/25mans should get better stuff than 10mans but I am willing to give them wanting to have the competitive edge and their gripe at being prevented of getting just that in light of the changes to KR, CN and TW.


This may show my noob, but wouldn't this throw a serious monkeywrench in the balance of the world-first races when 5.1 hits? Though I guess blizz doesn't really care much about that based on some of the release time stuff.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:59 am

Yeah it would.

And I've said it before that if Blizz goes with the Separate but Equal regarding KR, CN and TW and their loot, I would not be surprised if most raiding progress websites disavow all asian guilds from world first records due to performance enhancing loot =P
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