Patch 5.1

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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby bldavis » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:37 pm

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i think that is a sign we have been in a guild together too long :twisted:
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Sagara » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:43 am

I'm getting really interested in the 5.1 quest chains - after merely 3 chains, it really feels like the Horde is imploding. What I was wondering is if it was visible from the Alliance POV? Maybe we could share notes on our respective quest chains?




*** SPOILER ALERT AHOY ***




Chapter 1: Dagger in the dark (Day 0) On Patch day, we were given the "honor" of escorting Garrosh and secure the island that would become Domination Point. With construction underway, we were surprised by an unexpected guest: Vol'jin had arrived on Pandaria by his own means.
The divide between the troll and the orc was evident when Garrosh extolled the virtues of his war of conquest, while Vol'jin reminded him of exactly how he was viewed from the outside. Still, Vol'jin was sent on reconnaissance with an orc party and ourselves as "local expert".
While the orcs secured the northernmost point of the Veiled Stairs, Vol'jin and us explored the cave that leads to Kun-lai, stumbling upon a saurok nest containing mogu relics discussing the creation of the sauroks. Vol'jin was disgusted, while the orcs wanted to exploit the mogu's ideas for their own. Discussions heated, accusations of betrayal were made and a fight ensued where the orc party was wiped out and vol'jin wounded. Vok'jin went under the radar, officially killed in the cave.

Chapter 2: Voice of the Gods (Day 2) We were summoned to the Shrine of two moons, where Lor'themar and a band of Reliquary archeologists had set an advance base. We were sent to an excavation site on a plateau in the Vale of Eternal Blossom around the time a quilen statue was unearthed.
Sadly, no-one had cared to warn the elves about the quilen's unique properties, and we had to put the beast down, looting a mogu tablet describing some kind of weapon: "A bell cast from the makers' flesh, shaped by stars' fire, and bound by the breath of darkest shadow. This bell, when rung, could shake the world and call to the heavens."
Needless to say, Garrosh was overjoyed at the discovery. More importantly, the Reliquary provided us with a transcript of the tablet, mentionning they trusted "that you will not share this sensitive information with just anyone." Wether the Reliquary is aware of Vol'jin duplicity is unclear at this point.

Chapter 3: The Horde is Family (day 4) Chen has been a friend of Vol'jin's for a decade now, so when Chen called us to Kun-lai, it should have been a small surprise to know he was tending to a bedridden Vol'jin, poisoned in the battle a few days before. After some treatment, Vol'jin is aware enough to hand us a hearthstone - that serves as a distress signal to the one person Vol'jin trusts above all.
We thus teleport to the Valley of Trials, where Thrall and Aggra are teaching orclings. The Hearthstone's meaning is clear to Thrall - Vol'jin feared for his people, and trusted Thrall to help them in his absence. To Thrall, the Horde is a family that protects one another. Garrosh, not so much: the Echo Isles are under martial law, with orc warrior and warlocks keeping the trolls under constant watch.
To his chagrin, Thrall asks us to break the occupation by force. With the trolls freed, Thrall takes over leadership in Vol'jin's stead, mulling wether he has any right to force the Horde away from Garrosh's vision. He asks for our silence until he has found his own answer.



*** END OF SPOILERS ***



So, it seems the boiling point is much closer than expected, in part due to Garrosh's heavy-handed methods. But considering we hardly heard a peep of the Alliance activity in Pandaria, I was wondering what was going on on your side, and wether you guys had heard something of the current tensions on the red side?
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:49 am

Sagara wrote:So, it seems the boiling point is much closer than expected, in part due to Garrosh's heavy-handed methods. But considering we hardly heard a peep of the Alliance activity in Pandaria, I was wondering what was going on on your side, and wether you guys had heard something of the current tensions on the red side?


So far at the point I'm at: No. (but I've only got up to the point where we go find the 'retired' SI-7 agent at the brawler's guild... for what purpose, I'm not entirely sure yet.)

We have a scenario ('A little patience') and an couple intro quests that seem to be tailor-made to make the ally player base stop hating Varian. And, to be honest, it is kinda working. He openly discusses how he's come to appreciate compromise, and that he's not going to fight the war on the Horde's terms. Tyrande actually berates him for this in the scenario, but comes to understand after he breaks down and explains it to her at the end: basically that there's more to war than killing and dying in honorable combat, there's protecting what you love and not losing yourself in the process(at least that was my read on it).

But for the most part it's been: go kill horde, destroy their supply chain, and take care of whatever issue the archeologists have dug up.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Teranoid » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:20 am

Seeing Thrall made me want to flip my desk.

Good to know Metzen managed to go a whopping 2 1/2 fucking months before jamming him down our throats again.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Sagara » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:32 am

Well, at least he's on a bus in the Echo Isles for now. The datamined info doesn't point to him popping up again in the near future.
And to be honest, what non-Darkspear would have Vol'Jin turned to? Rexxar is in Outland, and Rokhan or Zen'tabra are trolls, and likely to be targeted first by anyone going after Vol'Jin.

... Ya know, I would have LOVED to have Rexxar instead.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:34 am

This could just be a final "why bringing Thrall back won't work" subplot, to close that off for good.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Sagara » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:40 am

KysenMurrin wrote:This could just be a final "why bringing Thrall back won't work" subplot, to close that off for good.


I'd rather have Vol'Jin (or someone else) move forward, and Thrall being the "Wise Hermit on the Mountain" that adventurers are sent to for guidance.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:40 am

i dont think thrall is coming back at the end of MoP
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Newsom » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:41 am

Vol'jin is obviously the next warchief. Did you even read Thrall's dialogue during the quest? :P
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Sagara » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:43 am

Well, I don't remember anything being especially noteworthy on that front.

More like: "Ok guys, I'll fill in for Vl'jin during his sick leave. Where's the hookah?"
I'll go re-check.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:46 am

To be fair, I don't think anyone has actually said they do think Thrall will come back as Warchief.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Fenris » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:48 am

So far at the point I'm at: No. (but I've only got up to the point where we go find the 'retired' SI-7 agent at the brawler's guild... for what purpose, I'm not entirely sure yet.)

He's our lead into the divine bell-stuff

spoiler










And the death waiting for resurrection-maybe not death of Anduin by Garrosh hand,if i remember the datamining right





/spoiler



Good to know Metzen managed to go a whopping 2 1/2 fucking months before jamming him down our throats again.

The problem isn't with Thrall though.It's the way they handed him to us as the green-skinned Jesus in Cataclysm that was terrible.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Forgrim » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:52 am

i have very little issues with thrall, but apparently, the lot of you seem to hate him with a passion of a thousand raging suns.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Teranoid » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:56 am

KysenMurrin wrote:This could just be a final "why bringing Thrall back won't work" subplot, to close that off for good.


As long as Chris Metzen has any sort of creative input in World of Warcraft I refuse to believe this will ever be the case. :\

Forgrim wrote:i have very little issues with thrall, but apparently, the lot of you seem to hate him with a passion of a thousand raging suns.


He is the biggest mary sue in the history of the world.

Metzen took him from revered warchief of the Horde to "I'm fucking Superman watch me save the world as I appear every 10 quests in Cataclysm!"

It was worse than Arthas showing up to get his ass kicked and run away in every zone in Wrath (although it was comical to see him have a different amount of HP every time).

Fenris wrote:The problem isn't with Thrall though.It's the way they handed him to us as the green-skinned Jesus in Cataclysm that was terrible.


Bingo.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:00 am

Eh, I didn't really have a problem with Thrall in Cataclysm. They needed to get him out of the way of the Horde for the purposes of the current storyline, and do it without marginalising him, so they made him into a hero for Cataclysm.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:10 am

Teranoid wrote:
Fenris wrote:The problem isn't with Thrall though.It's the way they handed him to us as the green-skinned Jesus in Cataclysm that was terrible.


Bingo.


Yep - some of the hate is pretty understandable. He got over-used, over-extended into areas that seemed to trivialize the player's actions, and had some pretty flimsy mary sue story-telling. If some people liked him after all that, other than Metzen, cool. I didn't.

A guildie put it this way:
Thrall in cataclysm felt kinda like what Tom Bombadil from The Lord of the Rings probably would have felt like if they had tried to cram him into the movies: This wierd, super-powered character who for some reason can't solve all the world's problems on his own.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Sagara » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:23 am

Didn't care about his Cata power trip. The Aggra quests were interesting, as was his book. In fact, anything that emphasizes his humanity, instead of his badassitude is cool in my book.

Thrall hates being a badass. Thrall just wants to be left alone to enjoy a peaceful Horde. And yet people just can't stop messing things up. So he sighs, he stands, and he does what little he can, mostly calling on the good in his people's hearths.

That's the Thrall I like - a man of words, more than action.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Lastwolf » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:40 am

Thrall was barely in any quests in Cata, it was only in the last maybe 2 patches that he even remotely turned up.

You see him on your way into deepholm and it's like "Welp, I'll stay here and hold the world together love you bye", until he gets married/blowed up in the Firelands intro. Unless you count the Goblin starter zone with his very inconsistent ability levels there, then his footprint is rather small.

I like Thrall, the term Mary-sue gets thrown around very easily and whilst I agree he has the sword of Author Fate on his side most of the time, that doesn't make him a poor character. The green Jesus, is a term I've heard a lot and I've never really understood, Thrall is almost nothing like Jesus, apart from the beard robe combo, I really don't see it, He's never died for the redemption of his people, Grom did.

For a Mary-sue, things don't go his way a lot, Graoosh is actively destroying everything he ever stood for as Warchief and he done jack to stop it, hell he's encouraged it. He's still alive and he's done some amazing things but he's a hero, that's what they do, it would be a very boring story otherwise. Once you take out the Mary-sue brush I find it hard to see how any main character couldn't be tarred with it.

I actually liked Arthas' omnipresence in Wrath and it made sense with regards of what he was trying to do, if it wasn't for Tirion and his bubblehacks (damn Mary-sue!), the plan would have came to fruition.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:50 am

I'm actually liking the Horde story, we get to see Garrosh as not-stupid, and effective (but morally... erhmmm...), and the storytelling is shaded just enough to make sure we don't think that what Garrosh does is a good idea.
Looking forward to the next chapter - and kicking myslf for not getting the beats quest done for another 240 rep yesterday - now I'm 240 rep behind wher eI ould have been *rage*
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Sagara » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:54 am

Well, I'll fill you in on the new chapter if there's one :-p
Looks like it's Bob's turn again!
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Teranoid » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:55 am

Yeah I completely ignored the beast daily for the first few days.

That's usually how I operate though. Get to what would be the last day of dailies, fall like 1 quest short and then rage at myself for being lazy that one day. Fell 100 rep short of being exalted with Golden Lotus and rather than just wait for reset I farmed for a chest key for 4 hours grumbling every time I looted a body that didn't have one.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby Lastwolf » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:55 am

I should really do that new faction, I just burned myself out of dailies.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:59 am

ah thrall in cata

i love his character's backstory
i LOVE the aggra quests when you help reclaim parts of him, great insight to thrall as a person

but i HATE what they did with him in DS

yes, he is a powerful shaman, there is no doubt
but to go from warchief, to master of teh fucking universe all powerful shaman in a matter of months in game time?
(which is important to remember, our fight in outland, excursion to northrend, the subsequent cataclysm, and the discovery of pandaria happens in a matter of years...iow less then a decade in game time line)

i thought it was wrong to make him the psudeo-aspect of earth
i mean yes, it fits with the dragon/demon soul and if any of the aspects beside deathwing used it it would be bad (something to do with part of their power already locked inside the artifact) but really?
thrall obtains the same power level of a titan empower DRAGON! through shamanism.......when a matter of months ago he was just a powerful shaman leading the horde

yes he is powerful, but there is a difference between mortal magic users asking the elements for assistance, and being so powerful you can rule over an aspect of the planet!
beyond that, thrall is a great character, great backstory and hopefully a nice long quiet retirement as some other lore personality steps up to take the reins from Garrosh....whom thrall put in place to begin with.

i love Vol'jin as warchief.
he has proven that he can work with the alliance when needed (4.1, he was the one that sent darkspear to SW to aid in uncovering the zandilari plot)
he has also proven to be a leader for the darkspears, and was advisor of thrall for years (he and thrall met following thrall and the orc's escape from the interment camps while crossing the great sea towards kalimdor, where he met cairne and the tauren)
plus besides hte orcs, the trolls are the longest running member of the horde. the undead joined (i believe) to give the horde a foothold on EK, kinda like Darnassus was for the alliance. the foresaken in turn brought in the blood elves (yay sylvanis)

everything points to Vol'jin being hte next warchief.
there is the long history between thrall and him, his next longest contact is Cairne, and he died at the hands of Garrosh and Magra Grimtotem, or orcs like Rexxar....most of which are older than thrall (being part of the original horde, while thrall was born either after or VERY shortly before the invasion..he was found as a baby)
it is either you give the warchief spot to an old orc war hero (oh hey Garrosh's dad! oh wait...) someone who hasn't been tested (new orc figure, blaine) or one of the longest members of the horde who was also a long time advisor to the previous warchief


table will be flipped if thrall is put back in power, despite us being shown him having a VERY clear want to step down from power and just raise his family in peace.
honestly, that is another part of it as well. do you give the warchief mantle to some young orc, who might be like garrosh and want the glory of the horde back? or do you give it to a young tauren, who still has a grudge against the person who conspired to kill his father (magra hasnt been killed yet has she? i havent done much horde questing) ...or do you give it to someone who defied the current warchief and offered a hand of friendship and peace to the opposing faction in order to subdue a greater threat?
another thing to remember is that the darkspear tribe is technically part of the Gurrubashi nation, which is why Vol'jin was summoned to the meeting with the Zandi'lari...and he walked away and fought them.


sorry for the wall of text, this is just something i am passionate about.
like i said, tables will be flipped if thrall is back in power full time


as a side note, garrosh is doing what he veiws as the best for the horde, having been raised with the view of his father being the hero of hte horde (which he was, he and thrall killed manneroth, which ended the blood craze....yay fantasy mechanics!) but he was a perpetrator of terrible deeds before that last act of valor. iirc he was the one that first drank the blood that started the blood craze...

anyway, if you want to see a side of garrosh not normally talked about, do the horde side of stonetalon mountains.
at one point, the orc in charge of the fighting tells you to blow up a druid school. garoosh goes apeshit on you and him for doing so, and it is only the intervention of a tauren shaman that saves him from making you an example for going against his orders and wishes. he wants an honorable war, blowing up neutral parties is not honorable.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:05 am

Lastwolf wrote:I like Thrall, the term Mary-sue gets thrown around very easily and whilst I agree he has the sword of Author Fate on his side most of the time, that doesn't make him a poor character. The green Jesus, is a term I've heard a lot and I've never really understood, Thrall is almost nothing like Jesus, apart from the beard robe combo, I really don't see it, He's never died for the redemption of his people, Grom did.

For a Mary-sue, things don't go his way a lot, Graoosh is actively destroying everything he ever stood for as Warchief and he done jack to stop it, hell he's encouraged it. He's still alive and he's done some amazing things but he's a hero, that's what they do, it would be a very boring story otherwise. Once you take out the Mary-sue brush I find it hard to see how any main character couldn't be tarred with it.


I'll agree that mary sue gets tossed around a lot, but on the other hand isn't that kind of what happened (at least in-game... maybe not the books?)? You have this character who suddenly (and fairly inexplicably from my view - but perhaps that comes of not reading the book?) happens to have the very powers necessary to save the world from a god-like big-bad so big and bad that the combined might of the dragon aspects, the dragon flights, cenarion circle and isn't sufficient, ah, but he can't do it alone... good thing there are these heroes here to hold the dragon down!

So I think it comes as a matter of perspective. Particularly, Deathwing wasn't a terribly well set up bad guy in my mind (almost too big a bad, literally in the case of some of the fight design) so I think Thrall being set up as the counterpoint may not have helped perception of him.

Lastwolf wrote:I should really do that new faction, I just burned myself out of dailies.


This. I finally got back to doing some after the commendations came out, since I'd hit revered and told them to go screw off while I drink myself into oblivion to forget :P

Also - maybe it's me... but it seems like the daily quest design was intended to promote world pvp, but on pve servers you just end up getting pissed off at everyone. Until apathy sets in and you just stop caring and grab whatever quest items you see.
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Re: Patch 5.1

Postby benebarba » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:06 am

I would also like to go on record as claiming that I am not responsible for any derailing :P
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