AskMrRobot

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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Gab » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:07 am

Extermi wrote:The problem is that especially gems are a bad place to get stamina, because of the 50% penalty on primary stats. This is also true for sha armour kits.

What you would usually do is to make sure you reach the hit/exp caps with reforging/gems/one trinket, and then have a haste/mastery trinket that you could easily switch against a stamina one if the encounter needs it. That way, you would have far better itemization, compared to using stamina gems and secondary stat trinkets.

What I do is just devalue stamina in the AMR settings, to keep it from using stamina gems (or sha armour). Stamina is just too situational, IMHO.


It is true that you get more itemization points for gemming secondaries vs gemming stam. However unlike secondaries, which you can reforge for, gemming/enchanting is one of the limited ways in which to increase your stamina.

Gemming: .75 stam/secondary

Sha Armor: .88 stam/secondary for gloves and .86 stam/secondary for boots.

Trinket: 1.5 stam/secondary (comparing Liquid Courage or Warlord Figurine to Vial of Dragon's Blood)

Obviously trinkets are your best option for stamina itemization but because of the limitation on increasing your stamina Sha Armor kits can be a very good way to go if you dont want to go as far as switching your gems over to stamina.

You suggest having ones trinket that helps reach caps and then a second trinket that has haste/mastery which could be swapped for a stamina trinekt. I would argue that in almost every situation two stamina trinkets are going to be favourable because of the considerably higher relative value (this is going to depend on encounter specifics and proc/on-use value but generally speaking).

It also really depends on what content you are running. 10 vs 25/Normal vs Heroic etc... A 10 man normal raider probably isnt going to need the extra stamina from gems while a 25 man heroic raider probably will.

Edit: Also all of the raid level haste or mastery trinkets have pretty weak on-uses/procs compared to the stam trinkets. The on use dodge from the DMC and on use mastery from the raid level stam trinkets imo is a lot better than random proc dodge and strength and strength on use that most of the haste or mastery trinkets have.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:22 pm

Hi Gab,
I do agree that the required health level varies between 10N tanks (me) and 25H tanks, and yes, that will make stam much more desirable.

My point still is that I would first try to get the required STA using trinkets, and as you also calculated this gives more "bang for the buck" due tho nearly twice the return on itemization points.

Yet, your remarks on trinket effects got me thinking. Looking at what highest level mastery/haste trinkets offer:
Stuff of Nightmares -> 5079 dodge proc
Vial of Dragon's Blood -> 2539 dodge proc
Lei Shin's Final Orders -> 2539 strength (~=parry) proc
Emblem of Tenacity -> 42617 health on-use (roughly 3000 STA)

Of these, I personally like the PvP trinkets on-use most, the other is just (unreliably) increasing your chances against (physical) damage rather than equipping a second STA trinket.

Looking at health trinket options:
Jade Warlord Figurine -> 2822 mastery on-use (shares CD with Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage)
Relic of Niuzao -> 8871 dodge on-use

So basically we have a strong on-use (mastery) or an increase in avoidance chance, again. It may depend on the encounter if on-use health or mastery is stronger, but the item level benefit is roughly equal.

So if a tank needs HP, he should, in my view, go down this route:
1) Switch in a single stamina trinket
2) Switch in a second stamina trinket
3) Regem / use sha armour

AMR tries to get you into regemming directly, and my point is that a char with STA gems and sha armour, that still uses one or two non-STA trinkets to get the stats, is weaker than one with the same health, but using one or two STA-trinkets to get there. Yet, of course, if two STA trinkets are still not enough for the encounter you have little choice - but I do not like AMR recommending this initially.

Edit: I have just seen that the on-uses of the stamina trinkets share a CD. That, in fact, makes wearing two stamina trinkets quite suboptimal, the lost item budget may well warrant to rather gem stamina.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:38 am

I completely disagree about Stamina being "situational." It is hands-down your best survivability stat, period. And there are a limited number of ways to get it. Gems may be the least efficient (behind armor kits and trinkets), but even there I would value stamina more than the secondary stat because it's that much better.

That is, in fact, why Mr. Robot's stat weights are what they are. I specifically chose stamina to be 2.68, which is just above the threshold where 120 Stamina beats out 160 haste. This makes it prefer Solid in blue (instead of Nimble) and Nimble in yellow (instead of Solid) because of socket bonuses. If the Stam:hit weight ratio is too much higher than 4:3, it will start gemming Solid everywhere; if it's too much lower, it'll start gemming hit or haste in blue slots.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:37 am

Theck, would you mind sharing your Mr. Robot's Stat Weights? I'm having trouble making the Robot keep me over Hit Cap (not to mention Expertise Cap)
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby degre » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:41 am

Nova wrote:Theck, would you mind sharing your Mr. Robot's Stat Weights? I'm having trouble making the Robot keep me over Hit Cap (not to mention Expertise Cap)

\/
theckhd wrote:I'll just leave this here:
http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php? ... 0#msg27990
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:59 am

Also, the current AMR builds are based on his calculations.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:50 am

Sagara wrote:Also, the current AMR builds are based on his calculations.

I know, but they keep suggesting me to go under Hit Cap and under Expertise Cap constantly, that's why I asked.

Thanks for the link!
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:12 am

Care to throw us the link? I'll give it a look.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:46 am

Sagara wrote:Care to throw us the link? I'll give it a look.

Sure, but I logged out after questing in my Retribution spec and gear. Will update later!

Though the issue happens with my current Ret spec as well. Just click the "Default PvE build" and optimize, and it will currently put me under Expertise cap for Ret.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ragnaros/arcia
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:50 am

Theck just said that he now values stamina greater than secondary stats, even to an extend whar he says its worth losing effective item level from putting it on gems (he only noted that it might be worth socketing a mixed color gem to get the socket bonus). So it is no surprise the config of AMR puts us under at least Exp hardcap as long as we would still be needing pure color gems to get there - which is the case at least for me.

Having socketing pure blue sta gems and double sta trinket for a good part of my tanking career since classic, it is no surprise to see a sta-heavy strategy being now again be the most effective one - I was just wondering as I was believing that the strong focus on mitigation would be more friendly to healers mana than just being a big health pool punching ball (on the extreme side of course). It seems like I was wrong.

I tried with AMR to replace both my trinkets by stamina ones (even crappy ones like the brewfest pair) and my AMR score skyrocketed while my exp fell well below softcap.

At some point I will try this is practice, to see if thats really easier for the healers. Its just I got so much used to the fluid playstyle where each attack hits *sigh*
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Volitaire » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:24 am

If you modify the stock control/Mastery or control/haste setup and change the Stamina weight from 2.68 to 2.53 you will find that AMR will push you to the hard cap (though not beyond, possibly even just slightly under) and will utilize hybrid gems. This is the strategy that I have been going with as of late just because our healers have been struggling with mana in general and being a huge mana sink with nothing else felt like it would be hurting more than helping. So getting as much Stam as I could while still getting the hit/exp caps was my method of handling that dilemma.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:22 pm

Thanks Volitaire, thats sounds like a good idea to me - while still being suboptimal according to theorycrafting, is should be definitely more fun to play.

I will try juggle around with trinkets and gems / sha to get the highest possible HP while still sticking at hit/exp cap. This would probably be the "Control > Stamina" gearing strategy, then :)
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:36 pm

Nova wrote:
Sagara wrote:Care to throw us the link? I'll give it a look.

Sure, but I logged out after questing in my Retribution spec and gear. Will update later!

Though the issue happens with my current Ret spec as well. Just click the "Default PvE build" and optimize, and it will currently put me under Expertise cap for Ret.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ragnaros/arcia


Finally got around to checking the AMR. As far as I can see, it's focusing Hit, followed by Expertise. The only big change, is that it focuses on Stamina much more than you did yourself, which is in line with the weights.

You'd have to drop Stamina's value lower (like at 2.5) to get results more in line with your current setup.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:26 am

Nova wrote:
Sagara wrote:Care to throw us the link? I'll give it a look.

Sure, but I logged out after questing in my Retribution spec and gear. Will update later!

Though the issue happens with my current Ret spec as well. Just click the "Default PvE build" and optimize, and it will currently put me under Expertise cap for Ret.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ragnaros/arcia


The stat weights I use are exactly what AMR has, though I use the control/haste preset. Additionally, I often bump the STA weight up to 4, hit up to 3, and exp up to 2.9. It seems to do a slightly (though still not stellar) job of maintaining hit- and expertise-cap with those higher weights.

However, I think that AMR has a problem in general with caps, and I haven't nailed it down yet. It consistently drops me beneath hit cap for some reason, even when there's an obvious way to reforge and get above it at minimal cost. For example, it will prefer to drop me to 7.2%-7.3% hit and add more haste rather than keeping me at 7.6% and less haste. And it's not even "working as intended" numerically, because the hand-tweaked setup gets a higher score. It's a recurring problem with their max-finding algorithm, and something I've been pointing out to them for quite a while. Presumably it has to do with optimization speed - their current algorithm is fast, but very sloppy because it misses fairly obvious improvements. I'm sure they can write a more thorough optimizer, but it would take longer, and they put a lot of emphasis on speed (something that I don't care much about - a 3-4 second optimization that does a great job is more useful to me than one that runs in 100 milliseconds but spits out garbage).

In any event, the default stat weights are chosen specifically so that AMR will use exp/stam in red slots, hit/stam in yellow slots, and straight stam in blue slots as long as the socket bonus is decent. On occasion, you'll find a very weak socket bonus that AMR will decide to skip, but the weights are set to be razor-thin so that this doesn't happen much (i.e. a pure exp gem in red, or a solid in red/yellow).

It looks like it's doing things properly for your gear set though. It's putting Solids in blue/prismatic slots, hit/stam in yellow, and exp/stam in red. I'm not sure what you think the problem is, apart from its abysmal tendency to drop you below hit- and exp-cap. That's not a problem you solve with gemming though, it's one you fix by reforging more intelligently. For example, it's doing parry->mastery on your chest, which is silly because you're below both caps. You can't do parry->expertise because the item already has it, but if you lock that in as parry->hit, it puts you at 7.47% hit and 10.65% exp, a noticeable score improvement.

You can push exp even higher by locking your trinket in with hit/exp/mastery cogwheels, but optimizing under those constraints drops hit to 7.15% while bumping exp to 12.74% (by shifting a hit reforge into exp). That's a noticeable bump overall, but I often prefer to maintain hit cap since it has a larger effect on HP generation.

To get there, I locked in a few other reforges of (something)->hit instead of expertise, forcing it to re-optimize around these new constraints. With the following reforge pattern, I got it to 7.69% hit and 12.20% expertise:
Code: Select all
MainHand : MasteryRating -> HitRating
Ring2 : DodgeRating -> ExpertiseRating
Shoulders : DodgeRating -> ExpertiseRating
Head : ParryRating -> ExpertiseRating
Waist : DodgeRating -> HitRating
Chest : ParryRating -> HitRating
Back : DodgeRating -> ExpertiseRating
Legs : DodgeRating -> ExpertiseRating
Hands : ParryRating -> ExpertiseRating
Wrists : DodgeRating -> ExpertiseRating
Feet : DodgeRating -> ExpertiseRating
OffHand : ParryRating -> HitRating
Trinket1 : DodgeRating -> ExpertiseRating
Ring1 : CritRating -> ExpertiseRating
Neck : HasteRating -> HitRating


Basically, AMR will give you a "decent" base reforge setup, but you'll almost always be able to tweak it to make it better by trying to force it closer to hit/exp caps. I've been discussing this with them in the hopes that they'll change their optimization algorithm in such a way as to greatly improve its baseline suggestions, but ultimately it's their tool, not mine, so I can't say with any certainty that it'll be implemented.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:48 am

Extermi wrote:Thanks Volitaire, thats sounds like a good idea to me - while still being suboptimal according to theorycrafting, is should be definitely more fun to play.

I will try juggle around with trinkets and gems / sha to get the highest possible HP while still sticking at hit/exp cap. This would probably be the "Control > Stamina" gearing strategy, then :)


I just did this, switching in a brewfest trinket and then modifying the AMR values from default to fucus on hit and expertise berfore stamina (setting both hit + exp to 5, including hardcap). This yields a very solid increase in stamina at the expense of mastery and haste, while still keeping me at hardcaps:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/d ... ht/extermi

It looks ok to me, and in fact if I check this with the default settings (control/mastery), it does not suggest any more changes, although it did not take me there initially. Interesting enough, if I let it optimize for control/haste (remember I did not have any wiggle room in reforging at my gear level) it suggests me to drop 5.5% below exp hardcap to get another 2166 stamina. So in general, the optimization algorithms seem to be very shaky and you just need to know what you want.

Theck, do you believe its worth dropping more than 5% exp for this amount of stamina, in general ? Is sta really that important ?
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