AskMrRobot

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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Fenris » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:07 am

Placing expertise and hit both at 2 and dropping haste to 0.5 i manage to force it to hardcap my expertise and stop reforging everything into haste instead of going for mastery

With haste at 0.6,it starts going for it above anything else again

P.s:even with 0.5,it still changes the hit cogwheel inside the dragonling to the haste one
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:19 am

Yeah, there's a known bug with haste gems right now. I believe that Yellow said he's got it fixed in his internal build, so once he updates the live version it should be fixed. He's trying to speed up the optimization algorithm first, though, so I don't know when that will be.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Treck » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:34 am

Sagara wrote:I tried throwing Theck's numbers on wowhead.

Looks like a legitimate list. The only weird thing is, without the filter for Crit/Intel/Agi, there are a couple of pieces that creep in the list.

It values Necklace of Imbued Fury above Saddlebinder Links, for example.

It looks like wowhead cant take into account what value reforging into a proper stat would make the item better? Or am I missing that part?

Also about AskMrRobot, something is either wrong or Im missing something, cause it just doesnt wanna optimize my character with those custom values.
Ive even tried reforging into something crappy, updated armory and asked it to optimize, but it insists on keeping it that way.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:42 am

Treck wrote:
Sagara wrote:I tried throwing Theck's numbers on wowhead.

Looks like a legitimate list. The only weird thing is, without the filter for Crit/Intel/Agi, there are a couple of pieces that creep in the list.

It values Necklace of Imbued Fury above Saddlebinder Links, for example.

It looks like wowhead cant take into account what value reforging into a proper stat would make the item better? Or am I missing that part?


Ask and ye shall receive It's a simple option in the filtering thingie. Amusingly, the prot set head piece pulls ahead of the ret set piece when using reforge.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Fenris » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:11 am

Seem they updated the system today


One problem:it keeps messing with cogwheels,and replacing the hit one with the haste one causes all the rest of the reforge to be messed up

-change to haste cog => i end up with 13.8% expertise and 7.05% hit after reforging

-i lock the hit cogwheel => i end with 14.85% exp/7.55% hit
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:37 am

Why AskMrRobot puts me with 7.37% Hit, instead of the capped 7.5%?
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Volitaire » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:08 am

Going to need considerably more information. I would suspect you might just not have the itemization to make it but without considerably more detail or information about your character that we could look up on AMR then it is almost impossible to say with anything definitive.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Treck » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:25 am

Im guessing since you are close to hitcap, only needing like 40-60hitrating more, and any hitrating over the hitcap is worth nothing, it cant find any suitable way for you to get hitcapped without going a bit over, thus wasting itemization.
Aka, you need 50 more to cap, theres an enchant that gives 150, the program thus values the enchant worth 50 hit rating, since everything above is worth 0.
So the enchant gives you 50 points, while anotherone, even if its haste/mastery or whatever, is worth less per point, there are more points that counts since they dont cap.
My guess atleast.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Volitaire » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:48 am

^^ Good Point, I hadn't even thought about it from that angle.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:37 pm

You can check my profile here:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ragnaros/arcia

I'm over he Hit Cap, but when reforging, it takes me under it. Could be what you say, though, that shuffling the reforges around keeps me behind,,,,
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Treck » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:55 pm

Well, you get 30k more hp from that change, you lose a little bit hit, and a little bit exp.
Remember the "control" option values stamina greatly, thats why it wants you to get pure sta gems.
The main problem is likely your gear choises id say, you want gear parts with pure hit or exp, and a decent secondary stat that you can reforge into the other (hit/exp) that you dont already have on the piece.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:57 pm

Yeah, been having bad luck. I'll keep that in mind, thank you!
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Koatanga » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:50 am

Fenris wrote:This is what i'm seeing now

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Reforging mastery into haste (going against the stat weight),bringing me under the exp hardcap (even with exp as third on the weight list)

It's even going as far as taking away my +hit cogwell from the dragonling to replace it with a haste one (so then it has to reforge for the hit-cap instead of going for exp or mastery,so basically i'm losing on 2 of the 4 top weights in favour of the fifth one)


The dragonling I can sort of understand. You are short on exp, not hit, so since you can't have a 2nd exp cogwheel, it swaps the hit out for the haste because you can get your hit closer to the cap figure through reforging.

What I am not understanding is the big move toward stamina. In previous lookups, I was advised to gem for secondary stats and not at all for stamina. Yesterday it changed its mind and wants me to use solid gems everywhere, and to use armour kits for hands and feet.

Why the change to stam stacking?
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Volitaire » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:43 pm

Based on the conversation that Theck linked earlier in this thread over on AMR's forums. That is where those changes are coming from.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:09 am

The problem is that especially gems are a bad place to get stamina, because of the 50% penalty on primary stats. This is also true for sha armour kits.

What you would usually do is to make sure you reach the hit/exp caps with reforging/gems/one trinket, and then have a haste/mastery trinket that you could easily switch against a stamina one if the encounter needs it. That way, you would have far better itemization, compared to using stamina gems and secondary stat trinkets.

What I do is just devalue stamina in the AMR settings, to keep it from using stamina gems (or sha armour). Stamina is just too situational, IMHO.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Gab » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:07 am

Extermi wrote:The problem is that especially gems are a bad place to get stamina, because of the 50% penalty on primary stats. This is also true for sha armour kits.

What you would usually do is to make sure you reach the hit/exp caps with reforging/gems/one trinket, and then have a haste/mastery trinket that you could easily switch against a stamina one if the encounter needs it. That way, you would have far better itemization, compared to using stamina gems and secondary stat trinkets.

What I do is just devalue stamina in the AMR settings, to keep it from using stamina gems (or sha armour). Stamina is just too situational, IMHO.


It is true that you get more itemization points for gemming secondaries vs gemming stam. However unlike secondaries, which you can reforge for, gemming/enchanting is one of the limited ways in which to increase your stamina.

Gemming: .75 stam/secondary

Sha Armor: .88 stam/secondary for gloves and .86 stam/secondary for boots.

Trinket: 1.5 stam/secondary (comparing Liquid Courage or Warlord Figurine to Vial of Dragon's Blood)

Obviously trinkets are your best option for stamina itemization but because of the limitation on increasing your stamina Sha Armor kits can be a very good way to go if you dont want to go as far as switching your gems over to stamina.

You suggest having ones trinket that helps reach caps and then a second trinket that has haste/mastery which could be swapped for a stamina trinekt. I would argue that in almost every situation two stamina trinkets are going to be favourable because of the considerably higher relative value (this is going to depend on encounter specifics and proc/on-use value but generally speaking).

It also really depends on what content you are running. 10 vs 25/Normal vs Heroic etc... A 10 man normal raider probably isnt going to need the extra stamina from gems while a 25 man heroic raider probably will.

Edit: Also all of the raid level haste or mastery trinkets have pretty weak on-uses/procs compared to the stam trinkets. The on use dodge from the DMC and on use mastery from the raid level stam trinkets imo is a lot better than random proc dodge and strength and strength on use that most of the haste or mastery trinkets have.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:22 pm

Hi Gab,
I do agree that the required health level varies between 10N tanks (me) and 25H tanks, and yes, that will make stam much more desirable.

My point still is that I would first try to get the required STA using trinkets, and as you also calculated this gives more "bang for the buck" due tho nearly twice the return on itemization points.

Yet, your remarks on trinket effects got me thinking. Looking at what highest level mastery/haste trinkets offer:
Stuff of Nightmares -> 5079 dodge proc
Vial of Dragon's Blood -> 2539 dodge proc
Lei Shin's Final Orders -> 2539 strength (~=parry) proc
Emblem of Tenacity -> 42617 health on-use (roughly 3000 STA)

Of these, I personally like the PvP trinkets on-use most, the other is just (unreliably) increasing your chances against (physical) damage rather than equipping a second STA trinket.

Looking at health trinket options:
Jade Warlord Figurine -> 2822 mastery on-use (shares CD with Lao-Chin's Liquid Courage)
Relic of Niuzao -> 8871 dodge on-use

So basically we have a strong on-use (mastery) or an increase in avoidance chance, again. It may depend on the encounter if on-use health or mastery is stronger, but the item level benefit is roughly equal.

So if a tank needs HP, he should, in my view, go down this route:
1) Switch in a single stamina trinket
2) Switch in a second stamina trinket
3) Regem / use sha armour

AMR tries to get you into regemming directly, and my point is that a char with STA gems and sha armour, that still uses one or two non-STA trinkets to get the stats, is weaker than one with the same health, but using one or two STA-trinkets to get there. Yet, of course, if two STA trinkets are still not enough for the encounter you have little choice - but I do not like AMR recommending this initially.

Edit: I have just seen that the on-uses of the stamina trinkets share a CD. That, in fact, makes wearing two stamina trinkets quite suboptimal, the lost item budget may well warrant to rather gem stamina.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:38 am

I completely disagree about Stamina being "situational." It is hands-down your best survivability stat, period. And there are a limited number of ways to get it. Gems may be the least efficient (behind armor kits and trinkets), but even there I would value stamina more than the secondary stat because it's that much better.

That is, in fact, why Mr. Robot's stat weights are what they are. I specifically chose stamina to be 2.68, which is just above the threshold where 120 Stamina beats out 160 haste. This makes it prefer Solid in blue (instead of Nimble) and Nimble in yellow (instead of Solid) because of socket bonuses. If the Stam:hit weight ratio is too much higher than 4:3, it will start gemming Solid everywhere; if it's too much lower, it'll start gemming hit or haste in blue slots.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:37 am

Theck, would you mind sharing your Mr. Robot's Stat Weights? I'm having trouble making the Robot keep me over Hit Cap (not to mention Expertise Cap)
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby degre » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:41 am

Nova wrote:Theck, would you mind sharing your Mr. Robot's Stat Weights? I'm having trouble making the Robot keep me over Hit Cap (not to mention Expertise Cap)

\/
theckhd wrote:I'll just leave this here:
http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php? ... 0#msg27990
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:59 am

Also, the current AMR builds are based on his calculations.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:50 am

Sagara wrote:Also, the current AMR builds are based on his calculations.

I know, but they keep suggesting me to go under Hit Cap and under Expertise Cap constantly, that's why I asked.

Thanks for the link!
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Sagara » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:12 am

Care to throw us the link? I'll give it a look.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:46 am

Sagara wrote:Care to throw us the link? I'll give it a look.

Sure, but I logged out after questing in my Retribution spec and gear. Will update later!

Though the issue happens with my current Ret spec as well. Just click the "Default PvE build" and optimize, and it will currently put me under Expertise cap for Ret.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ragnaros/arcia
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:50 am

Theck just said that he now values stamina greater than secondary stats, even to an extend whar he says its worth losing effective item level from putting it on gems (he only noted that it might be worth socketing a mixed color gem to get the socket bonus). So it is no surprise the config of AMR puts us under at least Exp hardcap as long as we would still be needing pure color gems to get there - which is the case at least for me.

Having socketing pure blue sta gems and double sta trinket for a good part of my tanking career since classic, it is no surprise to see a sta-heavy strategy being now again be the most effective one - I was just wondering as I was believing that the strong focus on mitigation would be more friendly to healers mana than just being a big health pool punching ball (on the extreme side of course). It seems like I was wrong.

I tried with AMR to replace both my trinkets by stamina ones (even crappy ones like the brewfest pair) and my AMR score skyrocketed while my exp fell well below softcap.

At some point I will try this is practice, to see if thats really easier for the healers. Its just I got so much used to the fluid playstyle where each attack hits *sigh*
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