AskMrRobot

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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Volitaire » Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:01 pm

So I just jumped back onto AMR and checked. My gear with the control/haste defaults puts me at 12.04% Exp and 7.64% Hit. Changing the Stam weight back to the 2.53 that I have been using I am readjusted to 14.86% Exp and no change to hit. This weight has worked for every piece of gear that I have added. Also @Nova, I have always had the Colossus enchant recommended since day one, though there has been some talk that the Weapon Chain is noteworthy to use as well due to it's raw exp stats.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:40 pm

Nova wrote:But I think it's still bugged, or their reasoning is flawed. The thing is that it still aims WAY too far below the Expertise Hard Cap. Like 5-6% (using default Stat Weights), and that could mean a lot of missed Holy Power generators, which in turn lead to less Shield of the Righteous coverage. You can see an example using my profile here. I'm over Hit and Expertise Caps, but when using their "optimizer", it puts me far below Expertise Hard Cap, all for a 1% increase in the Overall Score.

The "force caps" option doesn't even take into account the 15% Expertise Hard Cap. I'm not sure about posting in their forums to point this, but...

Something is definitely fishy. But it's not the algorithm's fault - it's the stat weights. Working out the math, it's putting Solids in red slots with dodge/parry bonuses, because the stat weights make that work out to be numerically superior. (160*1.9+120*2.68+60*0.25)=640.6, but 240*2.68=643.2.

Partly that's because the expertise weight is too low. It should really be set to 1.99, not 1.9. That gets you much closer to the caps (7.66% hit, 9.93% exp).

If I use some of my usual custom stat weights, I can improve that more. Example: stam=4, hit=3, exp=2.99, +force caps, gets me up to 10.73% exp. stam=8, hit=6, exp=5.99 gets me to 11.31% exp by replacing Colossus with a weapon chain (no change in hit with either setting).

At your gear level, you're simply going to have trouble hitting exp cap. You just don't have enough rating to go around unless you pick up higher-ilvl items or more items with hit/exp on them natively. I'd recommend sticking with stamina and living with being ~4% under exp cap for now. The extra 36k health you get (a ~7% increase from your current setup) is probably more important for progression.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:51 pm

Extermi wrote:Also, I disagree to the statement of the blog post about probabilities for "missing in the second that matters". If I have say a 1/400 chance to miss, this is also the chance that my "attack that matters" misses, not something multiplied by the fight duration - Mr Robot is definitely off in his stochastical analysis.

Yeah, you're correct. After reading their blog post, that stands out as pretty blatantly wrong. Their calculation incorrectly assumes you'll get exactly 1 miss in 435 hits, and they're calculating the probability that that one miss lines up with the one second of the fight you care about. They've artificially made the two things interdependent.

However, that's not how probability works. Each event is independent. Your chance to miss the attack that matters is always 0.25%.

Curious that they would make this error, since they properly used binomial statistics in the first part of the blog post.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:27 am

theckhd wrote:At your gear level, you're simply going to have trouble hitting exp cap. You just don't have enough rating to go around unless you pick up higher-ilvl items or more items with hit/exp on them natively. I'd recommend sticking with stamina and living with being ~4% under exp cap for now. The extra 36k health you get (a ~7% increase from your current setup) is probably more important for progression.

Thanks for the tip. Yesterday shoulders and waist dropped for me, raising my ilvl to 481 (here, without updating from armory as I've logged of in Ret gear).

I can reach Expertise Hard Cap with my current setup through some aggresive gemming, but do you think it's better to have something like thisnow, during progression? (We're progessing on the second boss of Heart of Fear Normal right now).

What I mean is, at my gear level you think it's better to lean towards Stamina?

Thanks again in advance, and I apologize for my English. It's noy my native language.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby theckhd » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:50 am

At your gear level, I would still lean towards stamina. A good rule of thumb is to put exp/stam in every red socket, hit/stam in every yellow, and stam in every blue/prismatic socket. From there, try and reforge for hit/exp caps (or let AMR do it for you by locking all of your gem slots). At really low levels of gear it can be worth gemming straight stamina everywhere, but I think you're above that threshold by a fair amount already. As your gear improves, you can just keep using this technique, because it will eventually end up reforging any excess rating into haste or mastery (depending on what you have AMR set up to prefer). You can also unlock yellow gem slots at that point, as sometimes a haste/stam gem will let you get closer to hit cap than a hit/stam gem due to reforging.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:17 pm

Will try that out, thanks. The AddOn ReforgeLite does a very good job in reforging while locking gems.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby halabar » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:34 pm

Amused/Annoyed that MrRobot has "recalculated" for spriests, now I need to change my haste gems to int/haste, and I don't have that cut yet... grrr....
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Treck » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:50 pm

My belt is not in their database so AMR think im not using a belt at all ;(
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby econ21 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:13 am

I wonder if a tweak needs to be made for weapons? Is it giving enough weight to base weapon damage? AMR is telling me to use a 450 weapon (the scenario arena one) instead of the crafted 463 (mastery/crit) one. I wonder if it is appropriately factoring in weapon dps? Due to the impact on dps, I am loathe to go for a lower ilevel weapon, although mechanical tank gear listings (e.g. wowhead) often imply that due to their emphasis on the survival stats. Maybe I am wrong and should go for survival stats all the way, but I feel that with comparing weapons of different ilevel, the impact of base weapon damage on dps is so big relative to the weapon's small amount of survival stats, that it is decisive.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby lythac » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:17 am

econ21 wrote:I wonder if a tweak needs to be made for weapons? Is it giving enough weight to base weapon damage? AMR is telling me to use a 450 weapon (the scenario arena one) instead of the crafted 463 (mastery/crit) one. I wonder if it is appropriately factoring in weapon dps?


It does not appear to be factoring in weapon DPS at all. Looking at the stat weights for both Prot Paladins and Prot Warriors it gives weapon DPS a big fat zero.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Jaitee » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:59 am

lythac wrote:
econ21 wrote:I wonder if a tweak needs to be made for weapons? Is it giving enough weight to base weapon damage? AMR is telling me to use a 450 weapon (the scenario arena one) instead of the crafted 463 (mastery/crit) one. I wonder if it is appropriately factoring in weapon dps?


It does not appear to be factoring in weapon DPS at all. Looking at the stat weights for both Prot Paladins and Prot Warriors it gives weapon DPS a big fat zero.


i think its because it only factors in survivability stats and weapon dps has almost no value in that (at most it will kill the boss faster)
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:23 am

After some serious upgrades (I had a happy wednesday with T13 legs, and LFR bracers + boots dropping) I revisited AMR:

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/die_ewige%20wacht/extermi

Basically, I am still unhappy with the optimization, and ended up doing it manually. Alle the presets but me away several % from at least exp cap even if I click the new "force" switch in the options, for a moderate increase in stamina. I simply did not get my gearing strategy (hit+exp to hardcap, then as much sta as possible, then haste/mastery) to work at all, and ended up doing it manually.

In the final configuration, putting the weights to Stamina = 2.5, Hit + Exp (incl. hardcap) = 2 it basically confirms the choices I made, yet its a shame I cant get these simple rules entered. I tried reforgelite but this was even worse. I cant understand its so complicated to just find the optimum, as at least in my current gearset the number of possible permutations would be so low that you probably could even just take a brute force approach 8)

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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:09 am

I really don't understand Mr. Robot anymore.

When selecting my Retribution spec, which is over Hit and Expertise cap, when I click on optimize, it puts me well below both caps, which together add many chances to miss hits.

It used to work better.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby pbean » Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:14 pm

Extermi wrote:Basically, I am still unhappy with the optimization, and ended up doing it manually. Alle the presets but me away several % from at least exp cap even if I click the new "force" switch in the options, for a moderate increase in stamina. I simply did not get my gearing strategy (hit+exp to hardcap, then as much sta as possible, then haste/mastery) to work at all, and ended up doing it manually.

I think the force option would only put you over the cap if you are near the cap any way. Like, if hit and expertise are so important, it would normally go to say 7.41% (see below) and invest in other stats. But with the option checked, it will instead put you up to say 7.68% before investing in other stats (just bogus numbers as example).

So if it somehow values all other stats together (stamina, mastery, haste, whatever) higher than putting more into expertise, the option is not going to help you. You would need to drastically modify the weights to get it to work. I noticed this myself when it was putting stamina in absolutely everything. With 3 gems I could easily cap expertise, but it just didn't decide to do it.

In general, with the current weights, I observed it will almost never really gem for expertise, except when the socket bonus is really good it will put in a hybrid gem (with stamina), and will only reforge into expertise.

Nova wrote:When selecting my Retribution spec, which is over Hit and Expertise cap, when I click on optimize, it puts me well below both caps, which together add many chances to miss hits.


Did you check the "Force hit/expertise cap" options? Normally AMR puts you a little below cap because points over the cap are 100% wasted, so the algorithm thinks is better to put you slightly under the cap instead ("to make all points counter") and invest what's left into other stats.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Extermi » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:10 am

pbean wrote:I think the force option would only put you over the cap if you are near the cap any way. Like, if hit and expertise are so important, it would normally go to say 7.41% (see below) and invest in other stats. But with the option checked, it will instead put you up to say 7.68% before investing in other stats (just bogus numbers as example).


Yeah, this would be what I would expect, but it does not work that way. I am very close to the cap (a single gem would put me well over it) and AMR still gems out of Exp and Hit, reforging to stay near hit cap and dropping down exp (putting me 3% under cap as a result). And all this for a really limited sta increase. I just dont get it. On one try it even optimized me to a total lower overall score, which I think was meant to be funny :-)
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:07 am

pbean wrote:Did you check the "Force hit/expertise cap" options? Normally AMR puts you a little below cap because points over the cap are 100% wasted, so the algorithm thinks is better to put you slightly under the cap instead ("to make all points counter") and invest what's left into other stats.

Oh yes indeed. When I check the force option, it puts me below both caps in Retribution spec, and for 0.30 and 0.60 respectively, which translates to a lot.

I know how the algorithm tries to think, but I don't know why an option to force it exists when it actually doesn't force it. Hell, with my current manual setup I'm OVER both caps a for a little bit (yes, wasting some points), but when I use Mr.Robot it puts me below...

What I'm saying is that it's very unreliable at the moment.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Zoopercat » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:04 pm

Nova, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. Can you give me your character name and realm so I can see what's going on with your hit caps? It's a very new feature, so any cases like this that I can find will help us improve the algorithm.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Nova » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:28 am

This is me, right now:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/ragnaros/arcia

When using the feature NOW the previous problem doesn't happen. What does happen is that I end up with less haste than with my manual setup (the one in my armory), which isn't optimal as well.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby halabar » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:15 am

Zoopercat wrote:Nova, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. Can you give me your character name and realm so I can see what's going on with your hit caps? It's a very new feature, so any cases like this that I can find will help us improve the algorithm.


Zoopercat, got a question for ya...

Is MrRobot dynamically adjusting for when haste caps are within reach? In my case it's for a spriest, and I'm gemming int/haste right now since I can't hit the cap, but, when the cap is within reach, the spriest boards tell me I'm good with forgoing up to ~450 int for haste if I can hit the cap. So will MrRobot adjust for that as my base haste increases, and that target is suddenly reachable with regemming?
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby palles » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:40 am

I have tried over several expansions to make AMR work how I want it to, but it never does... so I usually fall back to http://www.wowreforge.com I pick whatever gems I feel are right (maybe they aren't 'ideal' but they are what I like.) and then use wowreforge to get me to where I want to be.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby halabar » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:29 am

palles wrote:I have tried over several expansions to make AMR work how I want it to, but it never does... so I usually fall back to http://www.wowreforge.com I pick whatever gems I feel are right (maybe they aren't 'ideal' but they are what I like.) and then use wowreforge to get me to where I want to be.


It's got a few other issues, like the settings are way out of whack for when you are rating your second piece of tier. And my guess is it isn't updated yet for the new ilvl increases that we'll be doing.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Xfighter » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:58 am

Biggest thing as others have suggested, is that it recommends a generalized "best set up" for most people. Thing is though, sometimes that best set up is not the best for your playstyle/goals, And thus needs to be manually adjusted a bit. Take my warlock friend, he's been adamant about hit cap on his affliction warlock, but yesterday I did some work and got him a bit higher in hit than mr. Robot suggested but below the cap by 2.5%, while keeping his stats roughly on point, and after our raid he told me it seemed to work alright for him. Who knows maybe this week he'll swap that remaining 2% hit for 3% mastery like robot suggests, but again it's based on what feels "right" for you as a player.

Tweaking stat weights like others have suggested is a good way to learn how to achieve what you want from your gearing, and the more you play around with it the better you get at it. At this point for my pally, I use it as a rough guide to get near what I want, and then all it takes is a little bit of thought to get it how I want it, without fiddling with numbers over and over.



Experiment to get what YOU want, Instead of following suggestions by a computer based on a default playstyle (usually an optimal one - but your individual playstyle may not fit this optimal).




Dunno, I find it a good tool when at lower levels of gear and higher levels of gear, but in the middle transition phase is where some personal judgement is required along with it's suggestions.
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Levantine » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:14 pm

That's especially true for dot classes. It's jarring as fuck to have something miss but not numerically as bad as having, for example, a pyroblast miss. (At least this was true when I was more into the TC behind a lot of the dot based classes)
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Fenris » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:44 pm

And the system just decided to go into WTF-mode again

I was toying with some gear options and now it's reforging randomly into haste even with the mastery weights.

Anyone esle seeing it?
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Re: AskMrRobot

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:51 pm

Wondering how long it'll take before they can factor in upgraded gear.
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