Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

[Fetzie]

The tank only out-damages the dps in 5 mans if the dps are shitty. Instead of feeling bad for themselves they should get better at their job and not get the tanks nerfed because of their incompetence.

[Mannstein]

The tank only out-damages the dps in 5 mans if the dps are shitty. Instead of feeling bad for themselves they should get better at their job and not get the tanks nerfed because of their incompetence.

Hum,
I had Exp+hit capped, reforged into mastery, with a little haste thrown in.
I outdps some excellent dps in some situations. But true there are some instance where it's exactly the opposite, the very good dps outdps me in some few fights.

[Fetzie]

AoE is a situation where a (paladin) tank can really shine, especially with the Light Hammer talent, but a 350+ geared dps should be able to at the very least equal, if not beat a tank in a single-target fight.

[Bellanka]

I guess I'm in the minority here, and maybe this comes from doing dailies as Horde on an Alliance dominated PVP server ... but I always do dailies/heroics/skyshard farming in Insight.

For dailies I round up my kill allotment for Kill X MoB quests and pop my cooldowns ... then AoE them to death. It's quick and efficient, and if an Ally is trying to gank me the heal from SoI brings me back to full on every HotR just because of the number of MoBs I'm killing, so I can whittle the ganker down or laugh at them until a guildmate can show up. In Dungeons I can typically pull several packs at once (if not everything between bosses) and rotate minor cooldowns to stay alive and keep myself healed.

In heroics I still Seal Swap/"Stance Dance" as the number of MoBs goes down and healers can keep up better but I've found that SoI makes the pain of soloing go a lot faster and a lot easier.

[Nikachelle]

I guess I'm in the minority here, and maybe this comes from doing dailies as Horde on an Alliance dominated PVP server ... but I always do dailies/heroics/skyshard farming in Insight.

For dailies I round up my kill allotment for Kill X MoB quests and pop my cooldowns ... then AoE them to death. It's quick and efficient, and if an Ally is trying to gank me the heal from SoI brings me back to full on every HotR just because of the number of MoBs I'm killing, so I can whittle the ganker down or laugh at them until a guildmate can show up. In Dungeons I can typically pull several packs at once (if not everything between bosses) and rotate minor cooldowns to stay alive and keep myself healed.

In heroics I still Seal Swap/"Stance Dance" as the number of MoBs goes down and healers can keep up better but I've found that SoI makes the pain of soloing go a lot faster and a lot easier.

Unless I've misread everyone... none of us are saying it's hard to stay alive while doing dailies. We're only pointing out that it's incredibly slow killing mobs (no matter if you have 1 on you or 10) even with damage CDs up.

[Bellanka]

The tank only out-damages the dps in 5 mans if the dps are shitty. Instead of feeling bad for themselves they should get better at their job and not get the tanks nerfed because of their incompetence.

I'd hardly call the DPS in my guild shitty ... but in any AoE situation very, very few DPS can ever come close to me. It's only in single-target/2-3 MoB only situations that DPS surpass me.

I can do Temple of the Jade Serpent Heroic in ~10 minutes and in 4 pulls. I'm the top DPS by a considerable margin as a result of this. And that's using SoInsight.

The problem isn't tank DPS, though. The problem is lack of foresight on Blizzard's part and, as Theck said, they are feeding us a line of bullshit as a result.

I almost feel sorry for Blizzard because in most cases the player base can be far more creative than their testers and will think of new and interesting ways to use the abilities they're given (like the target dummy workaround on the first heroic Chimaeron kills)... but this one was almost cartoony in how obvious it has been for a LONG time. It was already obvious enough that they removed the vengeance gains from instagib abilities (I already had an AD macro with a LoH macro next to it for Spirit Kings so I could get the vengeance boost from the instagib if you stand in it ability) and now they're scrambling to fix it quickly and still keep things balanced ... and those two things NEVER work well together.

[Bellanka]

Unless I've misread everyone... none of us are saying it's hard to stay alive while doing dailies. We're only pointing out that it's incredibly slow killing mobs (no matter if you have 1 on you or 10) even with damage CDs up.

I fail at clarity, sorry!

My point was more that it's a lot faster to kill 7+ than it is to kill one at a time and that SoI itself is pretty powerful, even in terms of DPS, because of the survivability it offers you. It pretty much screams "Pull as many as you can and never die" and as a result, the more you pull, the more you can live through, the higher your DPS.

I'll run a log of a heroic if I have time before we go back into Vaults tonight, but I do between 80 and 150k in dungeons because of AoE pulling, and usually have 35%+ of the damage done for the run. And that's WITH insight on the majority of the time.

EDIT: Also wanted to say ... I am by no means an expert on this class. These are just my experiences as a healer-scaring, mass-pulling, keeping things interesting* for the group kind of tank. I'm new to the class but an old hat at tanking. Maybe I'm doing something generally accepted as wrong in terms of traditional paladin tanking that's resulting in these experiences, but I'm not seeing the same issues some of you are. Killing multiples always goes noticably faster for me, and the more I have the faster it is. The only real challenge is rounding them up.



*Interesting as defined as "Oh God Oh God We're All Going To Die!"

[Worldie]

I just say no tank, even the best I've met, can outdps me in heroics if i'm actually playing properly and not just autoattacking.

If a DPS is outdpsd by tanks, even on AoE, he's just slacking or incompetent.

[Zalaria]

Worldie vs. Bellanka, Temple of the Jade Serpent. Go.

[Pruke]

I just say no tank, even the best I've met, can outdps me in heroics if i'm actually playing properly and not just autoattacking.

If a DPS is outdpsd by tanks, even on AoE, he's just slacking or incompetent.

I havent seen any DPS doing 125-130k DPS on a trash pack.

[Raive]

I'm definitely gonna miss that damage from seal of truth while daily grinding, I'd generally pull 4-5 enemies at a time (the exception being when you're up against those asshats that stun you forever) cons, holy wrath, lights hammer and then tab target to keep 5 censure stacks on all of them. I've also been using the old cleave trinket from DS and the flamethrower trinket when I can remember to put them on.

Suppose I'll just switch to SoI and try to pull larger groups or something.

[Fetzie]

I'm definitely gonna miss that damage from seal of truth while daily grinding, I'd generally pull 4-5 enemies at a time (the exception being when you're up against those asshats that stun you forever) cons, holy wrath, lights hammer and then tab target to keep 5 censure stacks on all of them. I've also been using the old cleave trinket from DS and the flamethrower trinket when I can remember to put them on.

Suppose I'll just switch to SoI and try to pull larger groups or something.

I'll just respecc to retribution >.>

[Bellanka]

Looks like they "hot fixed" the 464 epic PVP gear into 458 blues.

[Worldie]

I just say no tank, even the best I've met, can outdps me in heroics if i'm actually playing properly and not just autoattacking.

If a DPS is outdpsd by tanks, even on AoE, he's just slacking or incompetent.

I havent seen any DPS doing 125-130k DPS on a trash pack.

I do hit those numbers, light's hammer is op (benefits from AW and Inquisition)

Met a ele shaman racing well over 110k dps on trashs, and a frost mage hitting 160k in some unknown way.

[Juugimus]

I didn't know about the hotfix before we started raiding last night.

Here is a log from our kill with me pulling 75k DPS. (Wrong guild name because my logging was off)


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7eu5 ... 27&e=10776


Avenger's Shield was critting for 330k


Censure was still my highest source of damage. I'm assuming the hotfix was already live as this was about midnight EST.

[Sabindeus]

I'm definitely gonna miss that damage from seal of truth while daily grinding, I'd generally pull 4-5 enemies at a time (the exception being when you're up against those asshats that stun you forever) cons, holy wrath, lights hammer and then tab target to keep 5 censure stacks on all of them. I've also been using the old cleave trinket from DS and the flamethrower trinket when I can remember to put them on.

Suppose I'll just switch to SoI and try to pull larger groups or something.

I'll just respecc to retribution >.>

^- correct answer

[PsiVen]

I run with a certain feral who routinely breaks 130k in heroics. You just have to be as aggressive as the tank, unless serious Vengeance is happening.

Anyway, looking at logs from last night (after hotfix?) SoI accounts for more than I expected. I think I will be trying Insight tonight.

Juugimus: Was it actually hotfixed?
My parse (SoT): http://worldoflogs.com/reports/unebbood ... 241&e=4624
And here is one using SoI: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-thq1u ... 381&e=7729

Keep in mind that this is mostly a two-target fight, so abilities are skewed. But if those numbers are AFTER the 80% nerf to Censure, surely it would have been some ludicrous majority of our damage.

(Edit): Apparently SoT was a ludicrous majority of our damage. O.O

[Juugimus]

Psi,

I though something was fishy. I'm going to try SoI tonight as well (or SoR if healing seems ok just to see how it measures to the nerfed SoT.

[Darielle]

Keep in mind that this is mostly a two-target fight, so abilities are skewed. But if those numbers are AFTER the 80% nerf to Censure, surely it would have been some ludicrous majority of our damage.

It was. On the Beta, Censure ticks were over 100k in decent Vengeance situations, and Censure/SoT/melee was like 50-60% of all damage?

The SoI thing is a hilarious load of crock though.

[Fenrìr]

The SoI thing is a hilarious load of crock though.

/sarcasm





It's all about choices...you using Seal of Truth all the time isn't a choice, it's a mandated thing by the community.







/end sarcasm.

[PsiVen]

Huh... If that's really post-nerf damage already, I see why 100k+ noncrit Censure ticks would be nerfed. I had no idea the numbers were so out of whack.

[Fetzie]

When you start giving players 150k AP, stuff goes wierd. WTB item level crunch, pst.

[Skye1013]

I just say no tank, even the best I've met, can outdps me in heroics if i'm actually playing properly and not just autoattacking.

If a DPS is outdpsd by tanks, even on AoE, he's just slacking or incompetent.

I havent seen any DPS doing 125-130k DPS on a trash pack.

I do hit those numbers, light's hammer is op (benefits from AW and Inquisition)

Met a ele shaman racing well over 110k dps on trashs, and a frost mage hitting 160k in some unknown way.

How many shadow priests have you seen doing that? I certainly haven't figured it out. If I dot everything, stuff dies before it really has a chance to fully tick. If I Mind Sear, I don't even come close. I do get some nice numbers when I'm able to Halo, but I have to be careful not to pull extra packs of mobs from it.

[Darielle]

How many shadow priests have you seen doing that? I certainly haven't figured it out. If I dot everything, stuff dies before it really has a chance to fully tick. If I Mind Sear, I don't even come close. I do get some nice numbers when I'm able to Halo, but I have to be careful not to pull extra packs of mobs from it.

The Halo numbers are what come into play. Other people hitting high numbers are also using cooldowns, like Light's Hammer, or even with tanks stuff like Dancing Rune Weapon which is bugged to interact with Blood Boil. I think I crossed 200k on a pull one of the few times I wasn't tanking as Feral with Trash/Swipe and Tiger's Fury/Berserk interaction.

[lakhesis]

(Edit): Apparently SoT was a ludicrous majority of our damage. O.O

Yeah, looking at the WoL reports I can see exactly why they've kneejerk nerfed it. The % of damage coming from censure in a raid situation was pretty cheesy.

Their solution is horrendously kneejerk though. And Holy Wrath is a terrible place to add compensatory damage.