Page 2 of 9

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:50 am
by theckhd
Shoju wrote:I'm looking through the changes, and with my limited knowledge, I'm unsure why this type of gap wasn't changed before now?

Because the devs (or at least that CM) are feeding us a line of bullshit. SoI was never the "intended" tanking seal, otherwise their tuning would have caught this sort of error earlier.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:53 am
by Shoju
theckhd wrote:
Shoju wrote:I'm looking through the changes, and with my limited knowledge, I'm unsure why this type of gap wasn't changed before now?

Because the devs (or at least that CM) are feeding us a line of bullshit. SoI was never the "intended" tanking seal, otherwise their tuning would have caught this sort of error earlier.



Well, I can see that, but I mean Warrior Changes as well. If they were so far ahead on AoE damage, wouldn't that have shown through in beta?

And are DK's really "ok, a little ahead, but nothing terrible?"

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:54 am
by Fridmarr
Well to me it sounds like a matter of determining where you stand when not using insight relative to other tanks. If there's a big gap, then you may have a legitimate quality of life issue, otherwise I don't think blizzard is going to back off the hotfix.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:56 am
by Nikachelle
Shoju wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:
econ21 wrote:
Ouch. Doing dailies, I feel like I've been hitting mobs with a wooden spoon. Is it now going to be a foam bat?

Seriously. This is *almost* as bad as doing Isle of Quel'Danas dailies back in BC. I haven't felt this weak at killing shit as prot in a very, very long time.


I did my dailies back then in a full set of spellpower gear. I even went and picked up "Of the Sorcerer" pieces to fill out the set in the very beginning until I had a nice set of full on spellpower plate from raiding. It made doing IQD tolerable.

Yeah, I remember discovering that very late into doing my daily grind.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:58 am
by econ21
Nikachelle wrote:This is *almost* as bad as doing Isle of Quel'Danas dailies back in BC.


Yep, that analogy was in the back of my mind too. I round up 3 mobs (if I am lucky) in the Golden Lotus dailies. I mash buttons frantically for pitiful damage. It's tedious beyond belief. The most interesting thing is watching to see whether the first to die will have respawned by the time I have killed the third. At least I found a use for our sad L87 ability - I blind the respawn in order to run away if my kill quota is filled.

I don't get the nerf to tanks soloing (and I suspect to healers - levelling holy paladins are suffering from no consecration/holy wrath AOE). You have a main spec - you want to play in that main spec. It's just not as much fun to have to switch spec to level, do dailies, to PvP etc. It's a quality of life issue and Blizzard just seems to be ignoring it. And as your Isle of Quel'Danas analogy shows - this is a backwards step. One of the most memorable quality of life improvements I recall in WoW was the Wrath patch that meant prot was finally decent for soloing.

Blizzard haven't explained why they nerfed tank damage without vengeance. It was presented as a quid pro quo for boosting their damage in 25 man raids, which is no comfort to me - a 10 man casual. The closest they came to a justification was saying that it was no fun seeing the tank top the damage meters in 5 mans. To which the rejoiner (aside from it being great fun for us tanks :lol: ) is that this only tended to happen while levelling. Decent dps in Cata five mans would comfortably out-dps us.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:10 am
by Fetzie
The tank only out-damages the dps in 5 mans if the dps are shitty. Instead of feeling bad for themselves they should get better at their job and not get the tanks nerfed because of their incompetence.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:37 am
by Mannstein
Pyrea wrote:The tank only out-damages the dps in 5 mans if the dps are shitty. Instead of feeling bad for themselves they should get better at their job and not get the tanks nerfed because of their incompetence.

Hum,
I had Exp+hit capped, reforged into mastery, with a little haste thrown in.
I outdps some excellent dps in some situations. But true there are some instance where it's exactly the opposite, the very good dps outdps me in some few fights.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:46 am
by Fetzie
AoE is a situation where a (paladin) tank can really shine, especially with the Light Hammer talent, but a 350+ geared dps should be able to at the very least equal, if not beat a tank in a single-target fight.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:46 am
by Bellanka
I guess I'm in the minority here, and maybe this comes from doing dailies as Horde on an Alliance dominated PVP server ... but I always do dailies/heroics/skyshard farming in Insight.

For dailies I round up my kill allotment for Kill X MoB quests and pop my cooldowns ... then AoE them to death. It's quick and efficient, and if an Ally is trying to gank me the heal from SoI brings me back to full on every HotR just because of the number of MoBs I'm killing, so I can whittle the ganker down or laugh at them until a guildmate can show up. In Dungeons I can typically pull several packs at once (if not everything between bosses) and rotate minor cooldowns to stay alive and keep myself healed.

In heroics I still Seal Swap/"Stance Dance" as the number of MoBs goes down and healers can keep up better but I've found that SoI makes the pain of soloing go a lot faster and a lot easier.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:52 am
by Nikachelle
Bellanka wrote:I guess I'm in the minority here, and maybe this comes from doing dailies as Horde on an Alliance dominated PVP server ... but I always do dailies/heroics/skyshard farming in Insight.

For dailies I round up my kill allotment for Kill X MoB quests and pop my cooldowns ... then AoE them to death. It's quick and efficient, and if an Ally is trying to gank me the heal from SoI brings me back to full on every HotR just because of the number of MoBs I'm killing, so I can whittle the ganker down or laugh at them until a guildmate can show up. In Dungeons I can typically pull several packs at once (if not everything between bosses) and rotate minor cooldowns to stay alive and keep myself healed.

In heroics I still Seal Swap/"Stance Dance" as the number of MoBs goes down and healers can keep up better but I've found that SoI makes the pain of soloing go a lot faster and a lot easier.

Unless I've misread everyone... none of us are saying it's hard to stay alive while doing dailies. We're only pointing out that it's incredibly slow killing mobs (no matter if you have 1 on you or 10) even with damage CDs up.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:56 am
by Bellanka
Pyrea wrote:The tank only out-damages the dps in 5 mans if the dps are shitty. Instead of feeling bad for themselves they should get better at their job and not get the tanks nerfed because of their incompetence.


I'd hardly call the DPS in my guild shitty ... but in any AoE situation very, very few DPS can ever come close to me. It's only in single-target/2-3 MoB only situations that DPS surpass me.

I can do Temple of the Jade Serpent Heroic in ~10 minutes and in 4 pulls. I'm the top DPS by a considerable margin as a result of this. And that's using SoInsight.

The problem isn't tank DPS, though. The problem is lack of foresight on Blizzard's part and, as Theck said, they are feeding us a line of bullshit as a result.

I almost feel sorry for Blizzard because in most cases the player base can be far more creative than their testers and will think of new and interesting ways to use the abilities they're given (like the target dummy workaround on the first heroic Chimaeron kills)... but this one was almost cartoony in how obvious it has been for a LONG time. It was already obvious enough that they removed the vengeance gains from instagib abilities (I already had an AD macro with a LoH macro next to it for Spirit Kings so I could get the vengeance boost from the instagib if you stand in it ability) and now they're scrambling to fix it quickly and still keep things balanced ... and those two things NEVER work well together.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:59 am
by Bellanka
Nikachelle wrote:Unless I've misread everyone... none of us are saying it's hard to stay alive while doing dailies. We're only pointing out that it's incredibly slow killing mobs (no matter if you have 1 on you or 10) even with damage CDs up.


I fail at clarity, sorry!

My point was more that it's a lot faster to kill 7+ than it is to kill one at a time and that SoI itself is pretty powerful, even in terms of DPS, because of the survivability it offers you. It pretty much screams "Pull as many as you can and never die" and as a result, the more you pull, the more you can live through, the higher your DPS.

I'll run a log of a heroic if I have time before we go back into Vaults tonight, but I do between 80 and 150k in dungeons because of AoE pulling, and usually have 35%+ of the damage done for the run. And that's WITH insight on the majority of the time.

EDIT: Also wanted to say ... I am by no means an expert on this class. These are just my experiences as a healer-scaring, mass-pulling, keeping things interesting* for the group kind of tank. I'm new to the class but an old hat at tanking. Maybe I'm doing something generally accepted as wrong in terms of traditional paladin tanking that's resulting in these experiences, but I'm not seeing the same issues some of you are. Killing multiples always goes noticably faster for me, and the more I have the faster it is. The only real challenge is rounding them up.



*Interesting as defined as "Oh God Oh God We're All Going To Die!"

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:54 am
by Worldie
I just say no tank, even the best I've met, can outdps me in heroics if i'm actually playing properly and not just autoattacking.

If a DPS is outdpsd by tanks, even on AoE, he's just slacking or incompetent.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:28 am
by Zalaria
Worldie vs. Bellanka, Temple of the Jade Serpent. Go.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:32 am
by Pruke
Worldie wrote:I just say no tank, even the best I've met, can outdps me in heroics if i'm actually playing properly and not just autoattacking.

If a DPS is outdpsd by tanks, even on AoE, he's just slacking or incompetent.



I havent seen any DPS doing 125-130k DPS on a trash pack.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:49 am
by Raive
I'm definitely gonna miss that damage from seal of truth while daily grinding, I'd generally pull 4-5 enemies at a time (the exception being when you're up against those asshats that stun you forever) cons, holy wrath, lights hammer and then tab target to keep 5 censure stacks on all of them. I've also been using the old cleave trinket from DS and the flamethrower trinket when I can remember to put them on.

Suppose I'll just switch to SoI and try to pull larger groups or something.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:56 am
by Fetzie
Raive wrote:I'm definitely gonna miss that damage from seal of truth while daily grinding, I'd generally pull 4-5 enemies at a time (the exception being when you're up against those asshats that stun you forever) cons, holy wrath, lights hammer and then tab target to keep 5 censure stacks on all of them. I've also been using the old cleave trinket from DS and the flamethrower trinket when I can remember to put them on.

Suppose I'll just switch to SoI and try to pull larger groups or something.


I'll just respecc to retribution >.>

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:01 am
by Bellanka
Looks like they "hot fixed" the 464 epic PVP gear into 458 blues.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:04 am
by Worldie
Pruke wrote:
Worldie wrote:I just say no tank, even the best I've met, can outdps me in heroics if i'm actually playing properly and not just autoattacking.

If a DPS is outdpsd by tanks, even on AoE, he's just slacking or incompetent.



I havent seen any DPS doing 125-130k DPS on a trash pack.

I do hit those numbers, light's hammer is op ;) (benefits from AW and Inquisition)

Met a ele shaman racing well over 110k dps on trashs, and a frost mage hitting 160k in some unknown way.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:00 pm
by Juugimus
I didn't know about the hotfix before we started raiding last night.

Here is a log from our kill with me pulling 75k DPS. (Wrong guild name because my logging was off)


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7eu5 ... 27&e=10776


Avenger's Shield was critting for 330k :shock:


Censure was still my highest source of damage. I'm assuming the hotfix was already live as this was about midnight EST.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:10 pm
by Sabindeus
Pyrea wrote:
Raive wrote:I'm definitely gonna miss that damage from seal of truth while daily grinding, I'd generally pull 4-5 enemies at a time (the exception being when you're up against those asshats that stun you forever) cons, holy wrath, lights hammer and then tab target to keep 5 censure stacks on all of them. I've also been using the old cleave trinket from DS and the flamethrower trinket when I can remember to put them on.

Suppose I'll just switch to SoI and try to pull larger groups or something.


I'll just respecc to retribution >.>


^- correct answer

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:20 pm
by PsiVen
I run with a certain feral who routinely breaks 130k in heroics. You just have to be as aggressive as the tank, unless serious Vengeance is happening.

Anyway, looking at logs from last night (after hotfix?) SoI accounts for more than I expected. I think I will be trying Insight tonight.

Juugimus: Was it actually hotfixed?
My parse (SoT): http://worldoflogs.com/reports/unebbood ... 241&e=4624
And here is one using SoI: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-thq1u ... 381&e=7729

Keep in mind that this is mostly a two-target fight, so abilities are skewed. But if those numbers are AFTER the 80% nerf to Censure, surely it would have been some ludicrous majority of our damage.

(Edit): Apparently SoT was a ludicrous majority of our damage. O.O

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:30 pm
by Juugimus
Psi,

I though something was fishy. I'm going to try SoI tonight as well (or SoR if healing seems ok just to see how it measures to the nerfed SoT.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:20 pm
by Darielle
Keep in mind that this is mostly a two-target fight, so abilities are skewed. But if those numbers are AFTER the 80% nerf to Censure, surely it would have been some ludicrous majority of our damage.


It was. On the Beta, Censure ticks were over 100k in decent Vengeance situations, and Censure/SoT/melee was like 50-60% of all damage?

The SoI thing is a hilarious load of crock though.

Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:58 pm
by Fenrìr
Darielle wrote:
The SoI thing is a hilarious load of crock though.



/sarcasm





It's all about choices...you using Seal of Truth all the time isn't a choice, it's a mandated thing by the community.







/end sarcasm.