Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Newsom » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:26 pm

Spirit Kings normal is extremely easy, so I can definitely see people getting stuck on Elegon where you actually have to pay attention to mechanics.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:03 pm

PsiVen wrote:Treckie probably doesn't even remember the normal modes of these fights :P

Spirit Kings is bar-none the easiest boss in the instance, while Elegon has a series of DPS and coordination checks involved. I'm a little surprised that those who get stuck on Elegon don't also tend to get stuck on Will due to low DPS, but with LFR+ gear 4/6 MSV normal is easy enough that casual raids will get there with little effort. Elegon is simply the first challenge.


It's also a burst dps check. After we finally got past Elegon, we one-shot Will. Getting 4 sets of sparks down was the challenge, we were hitting the enrage.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Passionario » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:27 am

Treck wrote:my point was more or less that no guild gets past spirit kings and then struggle on elegon, and if you take 3/6 without problem elegon shouldnt be an issue. it might be true that its a step up from the other 3, but once you gets past elegon, you got quite the big step up to the next fight.
I cant see guilds beeing stuck on elegon more than SK/Will

According to aggregated Armory data, 50% of the guilds killed 10N Spirit Kings within five wipes or fewer.
For 10N Will, that number is six. 10N Elegon? Thirty-three.
Worldie wrote:Still, dumbing down the fight instead of having people realize they need a minimum of skill to defeat the encounter... I thought LFR was for the random disorganized pugs, and Normal for organized guilds with some skill, but I might be wrong there.


"Some skill", indeed. Not "perfect skill".

Obviously, Normal should not allow one to disregard entire fight mechanics the way LFR does (tanking all Stone Guard together, never using Gara'jal's spirit totem, killing Elegon's protectors on the sparkly floor, etc.), but it should have enough margin of error to allow for an occasional mistake or two. Forcing a wipe because you accidentally popped a Cobalt Mine outside of relevant petrification, ate a single Devastating Arc or mistimed a Protector kill by 1.5 seconds is for Heroics.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:36 am

Spawning a protector right on top of a transition is hardly a wipe, though. Unless you get like, 4 adds on first p1, that just means the dps is plainly not enough for the fight.

I'd have preferred a nerf to the damage in P3 rather than dumbing down the transitions between phases.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:24 am

Worldie wrote:Spawning a protector right on top of a transition is hardly a wipe, though. Unless you get like, 4 adds on first p1, that just means the dps is plainly not enough for the fight.

I'd have preferred a nerf to the damage in P3 rather than dumbing down the transitions between phases.


Look again at the wipe numbers quoted above. Clearly there was an issue on the fight, and Blizz felt that it was time to push some people further along.

Remember that there's a patch coming, they want people to progress a bit more.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:11 am

And honestly, the damage in P3 wasn't THAT bad. If you could get through to P3 without losing people or too much time, you got surprised the first and maybe second time around, but once you had an idea of what was coming in, you'd just breeze past it.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:08 am

Yeah, getting through the transitions was the hard bit; the final phase is a pushover.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:16 am

Sagara wrote:And honestly, the damage in P3 wasn't THAT bad. If you could get through to P3 without losing people or too much time, you got surprised the first and maybe second time around, but once you had an idea of what was coming in, you'd just breeze past it.

Pretty much this. The first time we hit P3 we had maybe 3 people alive and they quickly fell over. The second time we hit P3 the only thing we lost was a single tank. I was really surprised by this because the thing I recall most hearing is about how many 1% wipes everyone was having on this fight (anecdotal, of course). Admittedly, we are super late on a kill (blah blah attendance blah blah) and have amassed a lot more gear than the average kills over a month ago so that could be an important factor.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:32 am

Most 1% deaths are due to enrage, because this or that went wrong and implied cumulative loss of DPS (1 extra add in the beginning is critical, as you lose time on both the 4-stack and 8-stack portion.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Treck » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:31 am

It honestly never occured to me we were talking about normalmode, its been a while now, dont really know what makes the fight "hard", but I remember its a case of "hard mode only" abilities making the fight easier (LoS thingy)
its surely harder than faceroll spirit kings, and Will isnt that hard of a fight either but shit can go wrong.

Passionario wrote:According to aggregated Armory data, 50% of the guilds killed 10N Spirit Kings within five wipes or fewer.
For 10N Will, that number is six. 10N Elegon? Thirty-three.

What kind of statistics are that? are people who "progress" normalmodes expecting to oneshot them and complaining they are to hard if it doesnt die the first day you go on it?
Elegon is very likely overtuned against the other bosses on normalmode, but I wouldnt say killing a boss that takes 3-5 tries to be a worthy boss progressing.
This isnt meant to be read as an elitistic tone btw
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:24 pm

Treck wrote:It honestly never occured to me we were talking about normalmode, its been a while now, dont really know what makes the fight "hard", but I remember its a case of "hard mode only" abilities making the fight easier (LoS thingy)
its surely harder than faceroll spirit kings, and Will isnt that hard of a fight either but shit can go wrong.

Passionario wrote:According to aggregated Armory data, 50% of the guilds killed 10N Spirit Kings within five wipes or fewer.
For 10N Will, that number is six. 10N Elegon? Thirty-three.

What kind of statistics are that? are people who "progress" normalmodes expecting to oneshot them and complaining they are to hard if it doesnt die the first day you go on it?
Elegon is very likely overtuned against the other bosses on normalmode, but I wouldnt say killing a boss that takes 3-5 tries to be a worthy boss progressing.
This isnt meant to be read as an elitistic tone btw


Fair point. But, as the stats suggest, for normalmode it becomes a bit of a cockblock. The issue is simply coordination and having the burst dps to get 4 cycles of sparks down.

Look at it this way, it's the first fight that requires individual responsibility in a dps check. You can't as easily carry a weak dps in the fight. (I'll admit I had problems as a spriest getting the damage rolling).

Finally, Blizz knows where people are stuck on "progression" and they have a patch coming, and they want people moving on into HoF and Terrace.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:44 pm

I'm starting to suspect that the progressive nerf of T14 will start with 5.2

People will need gear to get into T15 raids, and making T14 easier will lessen the weight of gearing up of new people eventually making it puggable.

That is, if they intend as I remind hearing, to not make "old content" completely become irrelephant when a new tier is released.


*random thoughts*
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:50 pm

Worldie wrote:I'm starting to suspect that the progressive nerf of T14 will start with 5.2

People will need gear to get into T15 raids, and making T14 easier will lessen the weight of gearing up of new people eventually making it puggable.

That is, if they intend as I remind hearing, to not make "old content" completely become irrelephant when a new tier is released.


*random thoughts*


meh... I could see a bit of a nerf coming on Galergawhatever (big bug) and we'll have to see on fights after that. The bug is the next "cockblock".

But I don't see why you are so concerned about it. If it is the older tier, better that it's rolled back some, and still relevant?
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:55 pm

I am a person with many alts. I have a lot of interest in knowing what the next route to gear up a char will be.

I rather be able to PuG through t14, than having to just ... farm heroics again! and again! and again!
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:29 pm

Worldie wrote:I am a person with many alts. I have a lot of interest in knowing what the next route to gear up a char will be.


Then if you are leveling a feral or guardian next, see my note in the memo thread...
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:35 pm

Sadly I don't have those items yet, plus I'm leveling my druid as resto :P
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Passionario » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:14 am

Worldie wrote:I'd have preferred a nerf to the damage in P3 rather than dumbing down the transitions between phases.


I dunno, there's a certain logic to nerfing that particular segment.

Other aspects of the fight have fairly clear accountability, either individual or for a particular role. Someone falls through the floor? It's immediately obvious who they are. Someone lets their spark go through? The column is a dead giveaway. Someone gets one-shotted by TA? Clearly they didn't reset their stacks. Protector doesn't get killed quickly enough? The DPSers should step up their game. Protector dies on sparkly floor? The tank should move faster. People are demolished in P3? Time for healers to pop CDs and start burning through mana like it's magic rocket fuel.

The transition sub-phase, however, is quite chaotic, which makes evaluating weak links rather hard. If someone gets killed by a stray add, who's to blame for it? Themselves, for getting caught? Or the healers for not topping them off beforehand? Or the DPSers for not bringing the columns down fast/synchronized enough? Or the tank for not grabbing the adds quickly with the tools they have*? Or the RNG for picking the worst targets possible? Or the raid leader for not bringing a DK to trivialize this segment with AotD?

I would prefer if they'd somehow tweak this section to make responsibility for failures more clear - but frankly, I don't see any obvious way to achieve that. So nerfing this part altogether is probably the next best thing.

Treck wrote:What kind of statistics are that?


OK, then let's take 30% of the most successful 10N raids.
Kings? 3-shot or better. Will? 4-shot or better. Elegon? 19.

Then let's look at number of pre-kill wipes for the least fortunate 20%.
Kings: 11, Will: 14, Elegon: 54.

As you can see, the pattern is largely the same.
Normal mode Elegon is really overtuned compared to the bosses before and after him.

Treck wrote: are people who "progress" normalmodes expecting to oneshot them and complaining they are to hard if it doesnt die the first day you go on it?


I'd say that people expect to progress at a more or less consistent pace, regardless of the actual speed. That is, if past experience has shown me that our raid can learn a new boss in a couple of evenings worth of pulls, getting stuck on the same boss for several weeks will be frustrating. Ditto if we generally take a week to learn a new fight and then get stuck for over a month.

I'm not saying that every single fight should take the exact same time to learn, down to a minute - variety is very important. However, when one particular encounter is five times as hard as the ones preceding and following it, that's just poor raid tuning.

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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:16 am

On 10, we just really need to look at paragon progression for Elegon - 27 pulls compared to single digit pulls of all the other bosses - sortof says it all, when they need 4 times as many pulls on that one boss (I assume we don't need to discuss whether they know their crap and how to do stuff).
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Newsom » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:31 am

Worldie wrote:I'm starting to suspect that the progressive nerf of T14 will start with 5.2

People will need gear to get into T15 raids, and making T14 easier will lessen the weight of gearing up of new people eventually making it puggable.

That is, if they intend as I remind hearing, to not make "old content" completely become irrelephant when a new tier is released.


*random thoughts*


What I find interesting/weird is the lack of new 5 man heroics for catch up gear. Or maybe that will be added in a future PTR patch?
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:46 am

Newsom wrote:What I find interesting/weird is the lack of new 5 man heroics for catch up gear. Or maybe that will be added in a future PTR patch?


They may consider LFR gear sufficient for "catch up gear."
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:04 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Newsom wrote:What I find interesting/weird is the lack of new 5 man heroics for catch up gear. Or maybe that will be added in a future PTR patch?


They may consider LFR gear sufficient for "catch up gear."


There was a blue post about it that basically indicated that they wouldn't be adding any 5-mans. So we'll only likely see new scenarios along with the raids.

I really don't enjoy scenarios...
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Teranoid » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:31 am

Then don't do them? After I finished the achieves I haven't ran a single one because they're great the first few times and a chore otherwise.

Scenarios are far from a great way to gear up for anything and I can't imagine it getting any better as the patch goes along.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby halabar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:56 am

Teranoid wrote:Then don't do them? After I finished the achieves I haven't ran a single one because they're great the first few times and a chore otherwise.

Scenarios are far from a great way to gear up for anything and I can't imagine it getting any better as the patch goes along.


Never said that I did them, just said I don't enjoy them. I think I've only done 5 total scenario runs, including the Theremore event at 85.

LFR + dailies is still the best way to gear up outside of raiding, as long as you don't have 1000+ lesser coins.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Passionario » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:17 am

halabar wrote:I really don't enjoy scenarios...


Not even the one with the bombing run?
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby beornus » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:20 am

that one is a bear if you have 3 clothies like I always seem to get when I do the bombing scenario, forget the name
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