Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Treck » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:30 am

I honestly dont mind the seal change that much, and honestly when its ticking for 80k in raids, its a bit silly.
It should then still tick for about 20k in the same situation tho.
But I already liked the battle healer glyph, and now it got a lot more usefull.

Also, Wrath is pretty sick, its hitting for 35k without any buffs, easily our highest damagedealer, no clue how it scales tho, maybe its meant to be THE dps you do when offtanking? :P
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:35 am

Wrath is critting for 120k on my ret... it's quite impressive °_°
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Treck » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:02 am

Maybe protpaladins in dps gear would outdps the raid in heavy aoe fights? :P
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Fetzie » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:42 am

The following attacks proc Battle Healer:

Melee Swing (obviously)
Crusader Strike
Hammer of the righteous (also splash damage effect)
Shield of the Righteous

Judgement, Avenger's Shield, Holy Wrath, Consecrate and Hammer of Wrath do NOT proc Battle Healer.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Fenris » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:30 am

I'm puzzled by the sudden statement that using Seal of Insight is intended.

I feel they simply made it up on the spot.SoT was targeted for a nerf and they had no real reason to give us for it so.....

Seembs like they weren't happy with tanks gaining a extra survivability cooldown with Symbiosis. Oh well I can remove Symbiosis from my protection bars I guess which are already enough crowded as it is.

I guess.One extra cd could actually have been a problem to balance around.

BUT,that said,at least the other tanks get crap they can use while tanking :?
Last edited by Fenris on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:32 am

Treck wrote:Maybe protpaladins in dps gear would outdps the raid in heavy aoe fights? :P

This before it's nerfed to the ground!
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:50 am

Sagara wrote:Quick follow-up. I've looked back at theck's numbers from his MATLAB thread. If I'm not mistaken, AS and HW have taken over Cons for single target.

I'm mighty curious about what our resident headache lord will be able to infer.

Extra EDIT: Just saw theck's latest tweet. :lol: At least his opinion on the matter will be clear!


I'm going to run the numbers this morning. AS and HW should become a lot more desirable for single-target, possibly even bumping Cons to the back of the queue. We'll know for sure soon.

As far as SoI, I've always hated SoI tanking. Especially given how crappy SoI is - it's a random proc (15 PPM), so it's not reliable and generally just turns into overheal. The 10% spell haste doesn't affect Sanctity of Battle, but does affect Eternal Flame and Sacred Shield (so you'll eke out another tick on SS, probably). The 5% healing buff affects WoG and EF (and probably FoL), but not our L90 talents.

It's all around "meh." I'd rather do damage, but now they made the option far less interesting. That said, if I recall correctly it was about a ~17k DPS to ~17k HPS trade before the nerf (at 100k Veng), so now it'll be about 3.4k DPS. I'll math out whether SoR beats it out for single-target DPS later today as well (christ I hope not, but this seems like such a haphazard and ill-thought-out balancing tweak that it might be).
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Fenris » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:12 am

Sigh....

Just started the daily grind,censure hits for 880-900,seal procs at 200-230

Yay....

I have this feeling that hp-into-WoG saved using SoI will end up being more dps than that >.<
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:20 am

econ21 wrote:
Blizzard wrote:When using Seal of Truth, their damage was too high.


Ouch. Doing dailies, I feel like I've been hitting mobs with a wooden spoon. Is it now going to be a foam bat?

Seriously. This is *almost* as bad as doing Isle of Quel'Danas dailies back in BC. I haven't felt this weak at killing shit as prot in a very, very long time.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Shoju » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:46 am

Nikachelle wrote:
econ21 wrote:
Blizzard wrote:When using Seal of Truth, their damage was too high.


Ouch. Doing dailies, I feel like I've been hitting mobs with a wooden spoon. Is it now going to be a foam bat?

Seriously. This is *almost* as bad as doing Isle of Quel'Danas dailies back in BC. I haven't felt this weak at killing shit as prot in a very, very long time.


I did my dailies back then in a full set of spellpower gear. I even went and picked up "Of the Sorcerer" pieces to fill out the set in the very beginning until I had a nice set of full on spellpower plate from raiding. It made doing IQD tolerable.

I'm looking through the changes, and with my limited knowledge, I'm unsure why this type of gap wasn't changed before now?
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:50 am

Shoju wrote:I'm looking through the changes, and with my limited knowledge, I'm unsure why this type of gap wasn't changed before now?

Because the devs (or at least that CM) are feeding us a line of bullshit. SoI was never the "intended" tanking seal, otherwise their tuning would have caught this sort of error earlier.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Shoju » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:53 am

theckhd wrote:
Shoju wrote:I'm looking through the changes, and with my limited knowledge, I'm unsure why this type of gap wasn't changed before now?

Because the devs (or at least that CM) are feeding us a line of bullshit. SoI was never the "intended" tanking seal, otherwise their tuning would have caught this sort of error earlier.



Well, I can see that, but I mean Warrior Changes as well. If they were so far ahead on AoE damage, wouldn't that have shown through in beta?

And are DK's really "ok, a little ahead, but nothing terrible?"
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:54 am

Well to me it sounds like a matter of determining where you stand when not using insight relative to other tanks. If there's a big gap, then you may have a legitimate quality of life issue, otherwise I don't think blizzard is going to back off the hotfix.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:56 am

Shoju wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:
econ21 wrote:
Ouch. Doing dailies, I feel like I've been hitting mobs with a wooden spoon. Is it now going to be a foam bat?

Seriously. This is *almost* as bad as doing Isle of Quel'Danas dailies back in BC. I haven't felt this weak at killing shit as prot in a very, very long time.


I did my dailies back then in a full set of spellpower gear. I even went and picked up "Of the Sorcerer" pieces to fill out the set in the very beginning until I had a nice set of full on spellpower plate from raiding. It made doing IQD tolerable.

Yeah, I remember discovering that very late into doing my daily grind.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby econ21 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:58 am

Nikachelle wrote:This is *almost* as bad as doing Isle of Quel'Danas dailies back in BC.


Yep, that analogy was in the back of my mind too. I round up 3 mobs (if I am lucky) in the Golden Lotus dailies. I mash buttons frantically for pitiful damage. It's tedious beyond belief. The most interesting thing is watching to see whether the first to die will have respawned by the time I have killed the third. At least I found a use for our sad L87 ability - I blind the respawn in order to run away if my kill quota is filled.

I don't get the nerf to tanks soloing (and I suspect to healers - levelling holy paladins are suffering from no consecration/holy wrath AOE). You have a main spec - you want to play in that main spec. It's just not as much fun to have to switch spec to level, do dailies, to PvP etc. It's a quality of life issue and Blizzard just seems to be ignoring it. And as your Isle of Quel'Danas analogy shows - this is a backwards step. One of the most memorable quality of life improvements I recall in WoW was the Wrath patch that meant prot was finally decent for soloing.

Blizzard haven't explained why they nerfed tank damage without vengeance. It was presented as a quid pro quo for boosting their damage in 25 man raids, which is no comfort to me - a 10 man casual. The closest they came to a justification was saying that it was no fun seeing the tank top the damage meters in 5 mans. To which the rejoiner (aside from it being great fun for us tanks :lol: ) is that this only tended to happen while levelling. Decent dps in Cata five mans would comfortably out-dps us.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Fetzie » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:10 am

The tank only out-damages the dps in 5 mans if the dps are shitty. Instead of feeling bad for themselves they should get better at their job and not get the tanks nerfed because of their incompetence.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Mannstein » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:37 am

Pyrea wrote:The tank only out-damages the dps in 5 mans if the dps are shitty. Instead of feeling bad for themselves they should get better at their job and not get the tanks nerfed because of their incompetence.

Hum,
I had Exp+hit capped, reforged into mastery, with a little haste thrown in.
I outdps some excellent dps in some situations. But true there are some instance where it's exactly the opposite, the very good dps outdps me in some few fights.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Fetzie » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:46 am

AoE is a situation where a (paladin) tank can really shine, especially with the Light Hammer talent, but a 350+ geared dps should be able to at the very least equal, if not beat a tank in a single-target fight.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Bellanka » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:46 am

I guess I'm in the minority here, and maybe this comes from doing dailies as Horde on an Alliance dominated PVP server ... but I always do dailies/heroics/skyshard farming in Insight.

For dailies I round up my kill allotment for Kill X MoB quests and pop my cooldowns ... then AoE them to death. It's quick and efficient, and if an Ally is trying to gank me the heal from SoI brings me back to full on every HotR just because of the number of MoBs I'm killing, so I can whittle the ganker down or laugh at them until a guildmate can show up. In Dungeons I can typically pull several packs at once (if not everything between bosses) and rotate minor cooldowns to stay alive and keep myself healed.

In heroics I still Seal Swap/"Stance Dance" as the number of MoBs goes down and healers can keep up better but I've found that SoI makes the pain of soloing go a lot faster and a lot easier.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:52 am

Bellanka wrote:I guess I'm in the minority here, and maybe this comes from doing dailies as Horde on an Alliance dominated PVP server ... but I always do dailies/heroics/skyshard farming in Insight.

For dailies I round up my kill allotment for Kill X MoB quests and pop my cooldowns ... then AoE them to death. It's quick and efficient, and if an Ally is trying to gank me the heal from SoI brings me back to full on every HotR just because of the number of MoBs I'm killing, so I can whittle the ganker down or laugh at them until a guildmate can show up. In Dungeons I can typically pull several packs at once (if not everything between bosses) and rotate minor cooldowns to stay alive and keep myself healed.

In heroics I still Seal Swap/"Stance Dance" as the number of MoBs goes down and healers can keep up better but I've found that SoI makes the pain of soloing go a lot faster and a lot easier.

Unless I've misread everyone... none of us are saying it's hard to stay alive while doing dailies. We're only pointing out that it's incredibly slow killing mobs (no matter if you have 1 on you or 10) even with damage CDs up.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Bellanka » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:56 am

Pyrea wrote:The tank only out-damages the dps in 5 mans if the dps are shitty. Instead of feeling bad for themselves they should get better at their job and not get the tanks nerfed because of their incompetence.


I'd hardly call the DPS in my guild shitty ... but in any AoE situation very, very few DPS can ever come close to me. It's only in single-target/2-3 MoB only situations that DPS surpass me.

I can do Temple of the Jade Serpent Heroic in ~10 minutes and in 4 pulls. I'm the top DPS by a considerable margin as a result of this. And that's using SoInsight.

The problem isn't tank DPS, though. The problem is lack of foresight on Blizzard's part and, as Theck said, they are feeding us a line of bullshit as a result.

I almost feel sorry for Blizzard because in most cases the player base can be far more creative than their testers and will think of new and interesting ways to use the abilities they're given (like the target dummy workaround on the first heroic Chimaeron kills)... but this one was almost cartoony in how obvious it has been for a LONG time. It was already obvious enough that they removed the vengeance gains from instagib abilities (I already had an AD macro with a LoH macro next to it for Spirit Kings so I could get the vengeance boost from the instagib if you stand in it ability) and now they're scrambling to fix it quickly and still keep things balanced ... and those two things NEVER work well together.
Last edited by Bellanka on Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Bellanka » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:59 am

Nikachelle wrote:Unless I've misread everyone... none of us are saying it's hard to stay alive while doing dailies. We're only pointing out that it's incredibly slow killing mobs (no matter if you have 1 on you or 10) even with damage CDs up.


I fail at clarity, sorry!

My point was more that it's a lot faster to kill 7+ than it is to kill one at a time and that SoI itself is pretty powerful, even in terms of DPS, because of the survivability it offers you. It pretty much screams "Pull as many as you can and never die" and as a result, the more you pull, the more you can live through, the higher your DPS.

I'll run a log of a heroic if I have time before we go back into Vaults tonight, but I do between 80 and 150k in dungeons because of AoE pulling, and usually have 35%+ of the damage done for the run. And that's WITH insight on the majority of the time.

EDIT: Also wanted to say ... I am by no means an expert on this class. These are just my experiences as a healer-scaring, mass-pulling, keeping things interesting* for the group kind of tank. I'm new to the class but an old hat at tanking. Maybe I'm doing something generally accepted as wrong in terms of traditional paladin tanking that's resulting in these experiences, but I'm not seeing the same issues some of you are. Killing multiples always goes noticably faster for me, and the more I have the faster it is. The only real challenge is rounding them up.



*Interesting as defined as "Oh God Oh God We're All Going To Die!"
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Worldie » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:54 am

I just say no tank, even the best I've met, can outdps me in heroics if i'm actually playing properly and not just autoattacking.

If a DPS is outdpsd by tanks, even on AoE, he's just slacking or incompetent.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Zalaria » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:28 am

Worldie vs. Bellanka, Temple of the Jade Serpent. Go.
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Re: Hotfixes...hotfixes...Always the hotfixes

Postby Pruke » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:32 am

Worldie wrote:I just say no tank, even the best I've met, can outdps me in heroics if i'm actually playing properly and not just autoattacking.

If a DPS is outdpsd by tanks, even on AoE, he's just slacking or incompetent.



I havent seen any DPS doing 125-130k DPS on a trash pack.
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