So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby rodos » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:09 pm

Fridmarr wrote:A couple of other feathers in the WotLK hat... It was that the first time that every class was designed to be raid viable in all of their roles. They also had the draw of a new class which I think gave a lot of people the chance at a fresh start with something very different that content alone really can't quite deliver on.

Northrend also looked fantastic, and had some cool music. The re-worked world in Cata has some great spots too, but apart from Uldum I found the actual new zones to be a bit visually disappointing (I know some people really love Deepholm, but it didn't do much for me). Pandaria has some spectacular scenery which, combined with no initial flight like all pre-Cata xpacks, should bring back some of the excitement of exploration and discovery to the game.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Fetzie » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:49 pm

rodos wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:A couple of other feathers in the WotLK hat... It was that the first time that every class was designed to be raid viable in all of their roles. They also had the draw of a new class which I think gave a lot of people the chance at a fresh start with something very different that content alone really can't quite deliver on.

Northrend also looked fantastic, and had some cool music. The re-worked world in Cata has some great spots too, but apart from Uldum I found the actual new zones to be a bit visually disappointing (I know some people really love Deepholm, but it didn't do much for me). Pandaria has some spectacular scenery which, combined with no initial flight like all pre-Cata xpacks, should bring back some of the excitement of exploration and discovery to the game.



I know a lot of people don't like the swimming aspect of vashj'ir, but I still remember my jaw dropping when I saw the trench with Nes'pirah at the end of it. You can really tell that GC was a marine biologist.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:58 pm

I've had some time to think about it, and while beautiful, Vash'jir just creeps me out... I think it's the whale shark...

And as for Panda's travelling back in time... it won't be much different than "the world is falling apart because of Deathwing, oh wait, here, take this time portal to outlands where a lesser evil is being a pain, now go kill the Lich King and Deathwing will just chill out til you find the time to make it back to the present."

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about time travel, but it would be better if it was actually built into the storyline, instead of just happenstance because of how the leveling path works.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Worldie » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:56 pm

I'm afraid asking them to rebuild the whole game at every expansion would be just... "too much".
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:53 pm

Worldie wrote:I'm afraid asking them to rebuild the whole game at every expansion would be just... "too much".

True, but humans still walk like they came from some 8-bit arcade game. It makes the game feel(look) old, and not in a classic way. There are other things like that. Many trees look quite terrible - poorly-joined flat pieces of texture.

What was "good enough" in 2004 looks tired and low-tech today. Maybe not a complete rebuild, but some sprucing up wouldn't hurt.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby rodos » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:22 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Worldie wrote:I'm afraid asking them to rebuild the whole game at every expansion would be just... "too much".

True, but humans still walk like they came from some 8-bit arcade game. It makes the game feel(look) old, and not in a classic way. There are other things like that. Many trees look quite terrible - poorly-joined flat pieces of texture.

What was "good enough" in 2004 looks tired and low-tech today. Maybe not a complete rebuild, but some sprucing up wouldn't hurt.

The water changes in Cata are nice if your rig can handle the higher levels (and the fgx drivers don't bug out). I actually installed Windows for the first couple of weeks of Cata so I could explore the news zones with everything turned up to max (Linux works fine day-to-day, but performance isn't great and the highest water detail is still buggy).

Are there any major graphics revamps in Mists? I thought I read something about new weather effects, but I might be mistaken.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:47 am

The trees are still made of overlapping flat planes, but they do look a lot better than they did a few years ago. Aren't we still expecting new player models during this expansion? They said Dwarves would have been ready for launch, but are held because the others aren't done.

(What I think they should do, eventually, for the levelling path? Rebuild Outland - not to quite the extent of Cataclysm - to cover a larger level range, perhaps 45-70 (the zones are huge enough to break up into different-level subzones, might need to add some extra small quest hubs), and have EK, Kalimdor, and Outland as parallel levelling paths that go all the way to 70. Allows players more choice, and they could speed up levelling to cap without actually making you rush even faster through the zones.)
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:41 am

Skye1013 wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm all about time travel, but it would be better if it was actually built into the storyline, instead of just happenstance because of how the leveling path works.


At some point if they keep going that whole mess will wind up being CoT instances, where you go out for full blown quests on the old continents. That will allow for a rework of the "present time", but really you have that problem everytime you go to an old zone and fight Twilight Cultists.. it's like, didn't these guys get the memo, we killed DW 25 times already, I'm wearing part of his head, get over it and move on...

At some point they'll need to go through and do another quest revamp.

But yes, they need to improve the models. It's really really needed.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:47 am

As far as I remind they said they are soon(tm) done with Dwarves and plan to redo Humans and Orcs right after.

I suppose patience will give us proper models... maybe less bouncy nightelves.
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halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby degre » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:01 am

theckhd wrote:
degre wrote:To close, you say that WoW jumped the shark, but I remind you that the most popular expansion has been the casual oriented WotLK, unlike the hard Cata Heroics, and in MoP we have Pandas, LFR, cheesy heroics, Pokemon and FarmVille.


Keep in mind that "casual-oriented" is only one part of WotLK's success (and it's arguable how much - iirc numbers peaked during the first month or two of Wrath, before it really hit its casual-friendly 'lolheroics' stride, and steadily declined afterwards). Benebarba alluded to another factor earlier - Wrath was the last expansion that really covered lore from the RTS games, specifically WC3. Arthas was the big bad, in a sense. I know people who bought the expansion and resubscribed just to kill him.

Since then, we've more or less been forging new ground. Sure, Deathwing is old hat, but he wasn't a major plot point of WC3. Most of the actual story we're playing through now is either new material (as in, we're no longer exploring areas we saw in the RTS games) or material set up by the earlier WoW expansions (Twilight cult, Garrosh escalating the H/A conflict).

I know that I feel a closer connection to the first three expansions than to Cataclysm, just because of the nostalgia factor. I suspect that a lot of other players did too.

Well, yeah, it's one part, but it's a huge part when you think that casuals are the vast majority of players.

In Cata I can see the problem in the lack of content, when the expansion was released there was the fun of the revised old areas, but then we just lacked plain content.

I mean, in the first tier advanced players had Heroics and a nice tier of raids, once that was over we moved first to FL with its dailies and eventually to DS, with nothing. Raiders already want to cut themselves for boredom, for casuals was even worse, because heroics were hard for a lot of people, with no heroics and no raid what was left for them when Cata was released? Archaeology. Hurray.

To close, I'm not discounting other reasons and believe you and others have present solid ones, I'm just saying what I believe are the reasons behind the majority, old game, lack of content, the little content being totally unfriendly towards casuals.


PsiVen wrote:That said, there's a limit to the amount that story drives this game or any other Blizzard title. I've mentioned before that I was displeased with MoP until I realized that I stopped caring a long time ago that the story sometimes loses my interest, because the gameplay is what I'm here for. I think the vast majority of WoW players feel similarly, and the fallout from people actually quitting over "ugh Kung Fu Panda wtf" will be negligible as long as they release compelling content.

This very much.

And to be fair it looks like it's going in that direction; had a shot at the new instances and they're actually funny, entertaining.
The brewery is stupidly easy, in normalised gear (372 if I remember right) was a walk in the park but it amused me, there are nice mechanics that require you to move and keep your attention up, I loved how you have to drive the barrels on the first one, the bunny boss is a good laugh and the last boss actually has many a mechanic that makes it interesting.
The Jade Temple is not as good but I've still found it entertaining, and stepping up to Mogu'shan Palace was even upped the difficulty a bit in normalised gear, I've also found the last boss very entertaining with all the abilities and movement involved, nothing to compare with stuff like Madness, I've dozed off twice yesterday so much I was bored...

Plus all the other side content, scenarios, pets, dailies, farmville...
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:59 am

degre wrote:And to be fair it looks like it's going in that direction; had a shot at the new instances and they're actually funny, entertaining.

Plus all the other side content, scenarios, pets, dailies, farmville...


The question is, can they keep it up after T14?.. if not, I might finally be out.

There's a flip side to all that content too.. I'm nearly certain that only 2 of my toons will see 90 anytime soon in Pandaland. There's enough reps to grind and side content that there's no way I'm going to do all that content for the crafting reps on all the alts, especially since you can't level as easily by gathering... (I'm gonna miss leveling a toon to max by mining or herbing in Uldum).
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Worldie » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:07 am

For me (with my 16 lvl 85s) and most people, I doubt alts are going to see level 90 until most of those rep farming become obsolete. Which likely means in T15.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:33 am

Northrend should have been the final expansion. Everything after that feels like a step down.

The way different zones exist in different timelines is a mess that I don't know if they can fix.

Also Azjol Nerub should have been its own zone and had a raid! /broken record
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Shoju » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:37 am

I think that the grind is one of the biggest negatives for me in MoP. After looking over the changes to the classes, it was a big deterrent to think about how grindy the whole thing is going to be, and realizing that most of that work would need to be done over if I were to main change (shudder) because I find that I don't like my class.

The grind really killed the fun for me. Tabard championing reps in dungeons was a great addition to me, I loved it. Sons of Hodir, and Therazane style rep grinds (which seems to be the model they are moving more towards in MoP) just have absolutely no grab for me. That might be because The Argent Tournament sapped my joy, and then Cataclysm killed any joy left in questing for me, with it's linear model of zones, and lack of options in where to quest.

By the time the RDF was introduced into the game, I was blowing through dungeons as often as possible. When leveling (remember, I don't play pures) healing and tanking dungeons were just faster leveling methods, and once I was at max level, championing reps in dungeons kept me motivated to keep running dungeons, and once I was done with the reps, having BoE's I could sell from running dungeons certainly kept me running them longer than anything else.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:44 am

Shoju wrote:I think that the grind is one of the biggest negatives for me in MoP. After looking over the changes to the classes, it was a big deterrent to think about how grindy the whole thing is going to be, and realizing that most of that work would need to be done over if I were to main change (shudder) because I find that I don't like my class.

The grind really killed the fun for me. Tabard championing reps in dungeons was a great addition to me, I loved it. Sons of Hodir, and Therazane style rep grinds (which seems to be the model they are moving more towards in MoP) just have absolutely no grab for me. That might be because The Argent Tournament sapped my joy, and then Cataclysm killed any joy left in questing for me, with it's linear model of zones, and lack of options in where to quest.

By the time the RDF was introduced into the game, I was blowing through dungeons as often as possible. When leveling (remember, I don't play pures) healing and tanking dungeons were just faster leveling methods, and once I was at max level, championing reps in dungeons kept me motivated to keep running dungeons, and once I was done with the reps, having BoE's I could sell from running dungeons certainly kept me running them longer than anything else.


Uhh.. the reps really have nothing at all to do with raiding. For crafting, they are mostly mandatory, but for raiding? nope. MoP tabards are NOT for gaining rep, they are rewards (back to TBC model).

Personally, I get so sick of running dungeons over and over, regardless of the rep.

It does sound like MoP will be somewhat linear in the questing, as there are major storylines, but assuming you need the rep, you'll want to do it all anyway. Raiders can just smash dungeons to level and skip that if desired.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:48 am

Lieris wrote:Northrend should have been the final expansion. Everything after that feels like a step down.

The way different zones exist in different timelines is a mess that I don't know if they can fix.

Also Azjol Nerub should have been its own zone and had a raid! /broken record


Agree with Cata being a step down. But Pandaland seems like a step in the right direction again (not having seen the raids yet).

Only way to fix the zones is eventually move it to CoT. Outlands becomes one massive CoT run.

Agreed with AN, a lot of lost potential there, certainly a lore derail, but one worth taking.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:55 am

Am I the only person that actually enjoys grinding out rep and achievements on multiple characters? I mean, my paladin will always be my main and the one I focus on most, but I do like grinding up rep to get the shoulder enchants on my alts (and helm enchants before those went BoA).

I can't figure out why some of you even started playing (and stuck with...) this game if you don't like grinding. I'm really looking forward to building up rep with all the new factions.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:01 am

Nikachelle wrote:Am I the only person that actually enjoys grinding out rep and achievements on multiple characters?


Yes.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Flex » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:03 am

Nikachelle wrote:Am I the only person that actually enjoys grinding out rep and achievements on multiple characters?


Main paladin does all the things, since I like doing things at least once. Alt paladin will do all the things that give me fun end rewards, like pets a mount I want and so on, but those wont be needed so it'll be stuff solely based on Ret/Holy gear, which is less fun for me actually as it moves the alt paladin down to the level of every other toon.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby degre » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:12 am

Nikachelle wrote:Am I the only person that actually enjoys grinding out rep and achievements on multiple characters?

I don't believe you are the only person, but surely I don't share the pleasure :p

I look forward to do all the grind on my main, I really look forward to all the sets of new dailies, but on my alts I'm going to do strictly factions which are relevant to my alt's professions as a matter of necessity.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:54 am

halabar wrote:
Lieris wrote:Northrend should have been the final expansion. Everything after that feels like a step down.

The way different zones exist in different timelines is a mess that I don't know if they can fix.

Also Azjol Nerub should have been its own zone and had a raid! /broken record


Agree with Cata being a step down. But Pandaland seems like a step in the right direction again (not having seen the raids yet).

Only way to fix the zones is eventually move it to CoT. Outlands becomes one massive CoT run.

Agreed with AN, a lot of lost potential there, certainly a lore derail, but one worth taking.


The raids looks pretty nice for what little I have seen. I think I would been a lot more enthusiastic about pandas and their lore had they been introduced into the game slowly. Brewfest, the odd NPC here and there, a quest hub or two... instead of "BAM! PANDAS EVERYWHERE!".

COT is as confused as the game world outside of it given that present day instances have been shoehorned into it. :D I don't think Outland is a huge problem as it works fairly well as its own self-contained story, it's really Northrend that is the biggest time paradox.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:01 am

Nikachelle wrote:Am I the only person that actually enjoys grinding out rep and achievements on multiple characters?


I can't summon up the motivation to do those more than once. I have the most neglected max level alts out there. :(

On the extreme end I know someone with five Dragonwraths. :lol:
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby Shoju » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:40 am

halabar wrote:Uhh.. the reps really have nothing at all to do with raiding. For crafting, they are mostly mandatory, but for raiding? nope. MoP tabards are NOT for gaining rep, they are rewards (back to TBC model).

Personally, I get so sick of running dungeons over and over, regardless of the rep.

It does sound like MoP will be somewhat linear in the questing, as there are major storylines, but assuming you need the rep, you'll want to do it all anyway. Raiders can just smash dungeons to level and skip that if desired.


Well, considering you can't have all the professions on one character, then I woudl still not care for the new style. I didn't like the reps in TBC> I hated that model, and was very excited (I'm sure you can find posts on here, and on the lounge about it) when they changed it in WotLK.

There are few dungeons that just wear me out. in WOTLK, Oc was the only one that I "really" hated, because you could only do so much to speed it up. At the very end, when it was "loleasy" myself and another guild tank were having competitions to speed clear them, highest AoE recount parses for the group (which meant ZOMG we are tanking a lot) and various other things to keep ourselves entertained.

In Cata? Stonecore, Throne, VP, and HOO were all subpar, and not fun. I never minded the Z's, only the craptastic amount of "I can't move out of the bad" that I had to deal with from people. I never minded the Twiroics that much. End Time could be a real crap shoot, but that was about it.

If it is still hold your hand linear, they are going to get even more complaints, and more people being unhappy, I can't see how keeping it so linear will keep some of the "old timers" happy much longer. I would probably have ended up quitting because of it anyway. I hate doing things "because I have to". If I do it "because I have to" and not because "I want to" then it's a problem.


Nikachelle wrote:Am I the only person that actually enjoys grinding out rep and achievements on multiple characters? I mean, my paladin will always be my main and the one I focus on most, but I do like grinding up rep to get the shoulder enchants on my alts (and helm enchants before those went BoA).

I can't figure out why some of you even started playing (and stuck with...) this game if you don't like grinding. I'm really looking forward to building up rep with all the new factions.


I hated the pre-nerf Sons of Hodir.
I hated Therazane.
I grew to hate the Argent Tournament.

Going and doing dailies so that one day, I unlock an enchant is just not my idea of fun and engaging gameplay. Going and unlocking the tabard, and then running dungeons, and doing "what I rolled the character to do" is more my thing. I loved the idea of buying the tabard, and burying myself in dungeons, looking for gear, badges, JP, VP, etc.. so that I could improve my character.

It's not too bad at the beginning of the expac, when the gear on the vendors is pretty good, but after the gear takes a hit due to new content, I just can't be bothered to care about Rep running for enchants. I still have characters that I leveled early on in Cata who don't have Therazane unlocked, because when I would go to Deepholm to quest, my desire to log off and find something else to do increased to levels higher than my desire to keep playing.
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby bldavis » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:27 pm

halabar wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Am I the only person that actually enjoys grinding out rep and achievements on multiple characters?


Yes.

no, but only as long as said reps are available fairly early into the zone, and dont require the entire freaking zone to unlock

i didnt mind Hodir, but i hated Therazane
basically its let me get a 1/4 or 1/3 into the zone, unlock this rep to start working on and then give me the option to quest or do dailies and i will be happy!

make me do the entire zone, and then do dailies/championing on top of it when i am already sick of the zone...that is a bit much
if they do make reps like that, at least have the things you are grinding for be BoA :evil:


i know i am weird though, i level all my toons and get thier proffesion all leveled
i dont have crafting toons, i have other characters i enjoy playing (or not)

could i make more money having dedicated crafting alts and/or a bank alt? sure!
but i wouldnt have as much fun
part fo the fun for me is doing research and trying to find the best way to play each class
i know im not the best at all of them, but i do pretty good with most
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Re: So I heard Blizzard is losing customers

Postby halabar » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:54 pm

bldavis wrote:no, but only as long as said reps are available fairly early into the zone, and dont require the entire freaking zone to unlock


Mount collectors will be grinding all those to exalted on at least one toon... :-)
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