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Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the EU

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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:23 am

Fivelives wrote:My answer, and apparently the answer of the European court system, is "no. It's not fair, so we're going to change that." The sale of accounts is completely secondary to the argument, although it seems to me to be a far more interesting topic that's open to a broader interpretation than just a yes or no answer.


And most US software developers won't even allow you to sell the package to someone else. Hopefully the EU will push for more changes in this regard.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:59 am

Fivelives wrote:Shoju, would you be as upset if there was a way to get the power upgrades without paying for them? Take League of Legends as an example - there's absolutely nothing available for real cash that isn't available for people willing to put in the time it takes to "earn" it. So in essence, there is a direct corrolation between time and money. It becomes less a matter of "wow, that jerk just bought all the best stuff so that there's no chance for me to compete" and more a matter of "how much in real currency am I willing to realistically value my time and effort at?"

And yes, it's neither here nor there. The question isn't about in-game items being sold for real currency, it's about games themselves being sold for real currency even though there is absolutely nothing physical changing hands, and it's being sold second-hand. It's a holdover from a piracy scare, back when the only form of DRM was pretty much just a check to see if the disk was in the drive when the program booted up. The question now becomes: does a company still own their product even after they've "sold" it to one person, thus preventing that person from re-selling it, simply because it's virtual? Is it fair for Valve to tell people, for instance, that they can't sell their digital copy of Portal, when I can buy the orange box for the Xbox 360 on traditional disk-based media then resell it at any Gamestop?

My answer, and apparently the answer of the European court system, is "no. It's not fair, so we're going to change that." The sale of accounts is completely secondary to the argument, although it seems to me to be a far more interesting topic that's open to a broader interpretation than just a yes or no answer.




You seriously are not reading the words that I'm typing. I'm beginning to get a little irritated about it. Let me make my stance perfectly clear to you in a way that leaves no room for interpretation, because you just don't get it.

I DO NOT THINK THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO PURCHASE ANYTHING IN A VIDEO GAME WITH REAL CURRENCY.
NOTHING.
NOT SPECIAL SKINS
NOT PRETTY HORSES
NOT NON COMBAT PETS
NOT POWER UPS
NOT GOODS FOR YOUR CHARACTER
AND CERTAINLY NOT CHARACTERS.

I've said all this already, but it's like you are too blinded by your own damn point to read properly. Maybe Bold and Caps will finally drive the point home. Buy the game. Buy the subscription if need be. That's it.


I don't care about your time. I don't care about my time. I made reference to "not finding it worth the money" to sell my account, because of the sentiment, and you can't put a price tag on digital pixels in a video game, nor the time it takes to acquire them. If you do, you find, like countries in Asia are realizing, that you are opening up the labor side of things, and then it gets sticky, because if you add up all the time that I played WoW, and had to pay me for that time, You would be looking at almost 200 days of play time.

200 days, Multiplied by 24 hours is 4800 hours.

So what are you going to pay people? Minumum Wage? Min Wage where I live is $7.85 /hr. $37680 is what my time in the video game is worth at minimum wage. That's ridiculous. If we increase that to what I get paid at my ACTUAL job, you would come close to 2.5x that figure.

So paying for characters doesn't work.

You signed the contract by clicking the agree button, I don't really give two shits if you want to argue it in court after that. It's a contract. You agreed to it. If you want to go back and argue it later, well too freaking bad! If you had a problem with it, you should have SAID SO UP FRONT, AND NOT AGREED TO IT

I don't care if you didn't read the TOS and EULA. Ignorance to it, is not my problem. I don't care if some court in the EU upheld it, I DON'T AGREE WITH IT. I DON'T LIKE IT. I DON'T THINK THAT IT SHOULD BE ALLOWED.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:18 am

Shoju, I see you arguing two things, which I don't see a direct connection to. On one side, you argue that the TOS/EULA forbid selling accounts/gold/etc. That's fine. On the other side, you don't want the game vendors or 3rd parties (including other players) selling extras, whether it be pets and ponies, farmville speed ups, or any kind of assorted boost in a F2P MMO. Those are two separate issues.

You are correct about the TOS/EULA, I don't think anyone allows that type of transfer (yet).

For selling the extras, you really are pissing in the wind, since EVERY SINGLE GAME COMPANY sells some sort of powerups, pets, ponies, or pernaches that are either a real boost or a cosmetic change. So while you rail against it, everyone is doing it.

/passes Shoju rocksalt, shotgun, and lawnchair

Apart from all that, there's a valid abstract conversation to be had regarding the ownership of virtual goods, and what that implies.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:24 am

Yes, and just like the old adage that your mommy taught you as a kid, Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't make it right.

No. I'm not arguing two points. I'm arguing one point. ONE POINT.

You bought the game.
You paid the subscription.

Move along. I don't care if its the game company selling the pixels, or the player. It is STILL selling items in a VIDEO GAME for real money. The hands that the money is going to make no difference to me, I think that is the part that the two of you are failing to comprehend.

I don't care if you steal someones account and sell their gold,
or blizzard creates some new adorably cute bug eyed pet based on a murloc and charges 25 bucks for it.

Either way, I don't like it. I don't care if they are all doing it. I don't think that it is the business model that we should be shooting for from game companies, and I don't think that we should be further encouraging it from players.

IMO, It is about as valid of an abstract conversation, as discussing the venture of soul trading, You know... if I decided I was going to start buying and selling souls.


EDIT:

And because I value things like friendship, and membership of maintankadin, I'm bowing out of this thread now. The lack of comprehension of written words I am interpreting from responses is only going to further piss me off.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:19 am

I just don't see such a big distinction between paying to enjoy a video game that only exists digitally, and paying to enjoy extras within that video game. (Whether it's actually worth the money is another matter.)
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby halabar » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:36 am

KysenMurrin wrote:I just don't see such a big distinction between paying to enjoy a video game that only exists digitally, and paying to enjoy extras within that video game. (Whether it's actually worth the money is another matter.)


Actually, a really interesting comparison would be what I get from WoW for $15/month, and what I get from a F2P spending $15/month on extras. If Panda gets pushed back till December or something, I might experiment for a month.

Regarding the worth, it comes down to entertainment. When you can pay $15 to see a single 90min movie, how does that compare to $15 of increases for a video game?
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Teranoid » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:19 am

Who gives half a shit about if some idiot is stupid enough to waste real money on a game? People act like getting anything in WoW takes any actual effort to begin with and makes it out like selling pets and mounts is so fucking terrible that I'm shocked someone isn't equating it to terrorism or some equally ridiculous shit.

Also I've got news for you Shoju.. game companies have been doing this shit for years. It's called DLC. But hey it's just another thread on these forums where people are so fucking stuck with the idea that their opinion is the right one and the only one that matters so why am I surprised?
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:03 pm

Shoju, you're still flailing away blindly in the exact opposite direction of the point.

We're not talking about the sale of in-game virtual items for real money, aka microtransactions or DLC.

We're talking about the sale of the game itself. I mention "selling accounts" because it seemed to me to be an eminently reasonable position to take, considering that your wow account basically IS the entire game.

I still say it seems to me like you're vastly overvaluing your time and/or it pisses you off that there are people out there that have more money than you do.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Flex » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:10 pm

to be fair people have been arguing both points in this thread.

Also this thread got stupid when that started happening.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:54 pm

I dunno, I thought the thread got stupid when people started taking "moral" stances on the sale of virtual goods, as if there was some inherent morality that forbade such transactions. I get not liking it, or not wanting to participate in it. But suggesting that nobody should do it at all because it's somehow morally objectionable is sort of silly and arbitrary.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:40 pm

I think this was mentioned previously, but if you want to sell your digital copy of the game (aka account key) it shouldn't come with the account attached. Someone should be able to purchase it, then set up their own new account (which would then disable yours, or require you to disable yours for them to finalize theirs, to prevent key thefts.) I mean, if you're selling a cd copy of the game, you don't give them all of your save files, do you?
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Teranoid » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:42 pm

theckhd wrote:I dunno, I thought the thread got stupid when people started taking "moral" stances on the sale of virtual goods, as if there was some inherent morality that forbade such transactions. I get not liking it, or not wanting to participate in it. But suggesting that nobody should do it at all because it's somehow morally objectionable is sort of silly and arbitrary.


What do you expect when this is the same forum that equated the LFR gear exploits to accusing people of being bad parents?
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:50 pm

And yet... it's still infinitely better than the official forums or MMO-C...
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Shoju » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:15 am

theckhd wrote:I dunno, I thought the thread got stupid when people started taking "moral" stances on the sale of virtual goods, as if there was some inherent morality that forbade such transactions. I get not liking it, or not wanting to participate in it. But suggesting that nobody should do it at all because it's somehow morally objectionable is sort of silly and arbitrary.


I apologize if mine came off as a moral stance.

I don't like it. I don't participate in it. I find it to be utterly ridiculous and pointless. I bought the game. I paid the subscription. Personally, to me, that should be it.

I don't see how I'm "flailing away" in the opposite direction. I simply stated that I don't like EITHER side of it. I don't care who the money goes to.
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Re: Selling accounts may soon be legal - already is in the E

Postby Fivelives » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:57 am

Skye1013 wrote:I think this was mentioned previously, but if you want to sell your digital copy of the game (aka account key) it shouldn't come with the account attached. Someone should be able to purchase it, then set up their own new account (which would then disable yours, or require you to disable yours for them to finalize theirs, to prevent key thefts.) I mean, if you're selling a cd copy of the game, you don't give them all of your save files, do you?


A game isn't sold with the save files, but when you open things up to the market and competition sets in, I'd expect that would be changed in a hurry. If I could get a better used price at a retailer for including my save files, I'd be buying flash drives in bulk. Digital media just makes that easier and cheaper. I couldn't see it for games like Uncharted, or anything else that linear, but for a game like Mass Effect? There's already a pretty thriving community of free game save offerings - give people a chance to make money off of those and I imagine they'd take it in a heartbeat.
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