If you were a designer.

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Re: If you were a designer.

Postby bldavis » Thu May 03, 2012 10:05 am

well really if you see a mage casting anything blue, its prob frost
blue and sprkly - arcane
orange - fire

easy
oh and green fire - emo
:P
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Re: If you were a designer.

Postby tinalt » Thu May 03, 2012 6:19 pm

halabar wrote:
Koatanga wrote:I'd like to see pairs of abilities among various classes that when combined cause additional things to happen. I believe a somewhat recent game had a thing where a caster could create a wall of fire that gave an archer flaming arrows if he shot through it.

Consecration could amplify the holy magic of any person standing in it.
Perhaps standing within the ring of totems could enahnce nature magic.
A rogue might use some oils that could be ignited by a Warlock's immolate.
A hunter could heal a shapeshifted druid like he would a pet.

Basically I would come up with a special synergy for each class and spec when combines with each other class and spec.


I like the idea, only problem is that it would lead to raid stacking, especially in 10-mans, unless you have enough overlap that most combos can bring the same buffs.


Why do people say raid stacking like it's a bad thing? I know bliz wants people to "bring the class you want to play," but personally I'd be a lot more interested in playing different classes if they were more interesting to play with things like the above combos.

Blizzard tries very hard to make everything as fair as possible, and it's a good thing that almost every spec is viable now, but I think most classes could use some more "fun" stuff, even if it complicates balance or has the possibility to make one spec more viable then another.

But then again this is coming from a person who would gladly reduce their own effectiveness if the trade was for more interesting stuff. I've played a prot paladin since 2007, while there have been some massive changes over the years and I'm definately more viable of a tank now then I was when I started, I can't help but be kind of bored with it.
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Re: If you were a designer.

Postby Mannstein » Fri May 04, 2012 4:31 am

tinalt wrote:
Why do people say raid stacking like it's a bad thing? I know bliz wants people to "bring the class you want to play," but personally I'd be a lot more interested in playing different classes if they were more interesting to play with things like the above combos.

Blizzard tries very hard to make everything as fair as possible, and it's a good thing that almost every spec is viable now, but I think most classes could use some more "fun" stuff, even if it complicates balance or has the possibility to make one spec more viable then another.

Stacking is bad.. it's so bad they should invent a new definition of bad just for it...
Stacking is a syntom of class (vs encounter) inbalance... they are not related but one can affect another...
As much as i would like to be a special snowflake, performance>fluff.
Imagine that Blizzard draws a Prot paladin as you think it should be... and gives you the rotations/procs/abilities you adore...
Then the raid leader comes to you and say:
"Tinalt, raid is full, come back next expansion or when a kiten in bear form isn't better tank than you. But look at the bright side, you can go to the LFR at any time you want"
I think you wouldn't like to be a special snowflake while sitting in Ogrimmar, or Dala or...
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Re: If you were a designer.

Postby benebarba » Fri May 04, 2012 7:10 am

Mannstein wrote:
tinalt wrote:
Why do people say raid stacking like it's a bad thing? I know bliz wants people to "bring the class you want to play," but personally I'd be a lot more interested in playing different classes if they were more interesting to play with things like the above combos.

Blizzard tries very hard to make everything as fair as possible, and it's a good thing that almost every spec is viable now, but I think most classes could use some more "fun" stuff, even if it complicates balance or has the possibility to make one spec more viable then another.

Stacking is bad.. it's so bad they should invent a new definition of bad just for it...
Stacking is a syntom of class (vs encounter) inbalance... they are not related but one can affect another...
As much as i would like to be a special snowflake, performance>fluff.
Imagine that Blizzard draws a Prot paladin as you think it should be... and gives you the rotations/procs/abilities you adore...
Then the raid leader comes to you and say:
"Tinalt, raid is full, come back next expansion or when a kiten in bear form isn't better tank than you. But look at the bright side, you can go to the LFR at any time you want"
I think you wouldn't like to be a special snowflake while sitting in Ogrimmar, or Dala or...


pretty much this ^

Class stacking is directly caused by encounters favoring particular classes/specs (imbalance). If you in a guild which will use available advantages, you're going to stack. Which means you either keep a huge roster of players (or a constantly changing one, based on the content), or your players all consistently play all classes (or a subset), so that they are ready to swap to the needed class.

The rotating roster may have been common, and may still be common in certain types of guilds, but if it became a required aspect of the raiding game at this point... I don't think the repercussions would be that great. I like playing alts for fun, I don't want to have to play X alts just because I need to keep them geared and practiced in case spec/class X is literally worthless to my raid next tier compared to another.


Now, to a less hyperbolic extent - class/spec flavor is fine, and indeed good IMO. But adding cruft, calling it flavor, and having it have an impact on performance isn't as fine. I have a feeling that classes such as the paladin have it a bit easier in this regard, since we really don't have competing specs. Hunters, Mages, locks, Priests, Druids, Shaman, etc. definitely do (2+ DPS or healing specs)... and even when Blizzard tried to add more spec flavor differentiation in Cata (I seem to recall this being a statement about mages for example), folks in raids still tended to the one that did better on a given fight (I'm sure there were holdouts and people sat who didn't want to change). And why not? Few want to purposefully hobble themselves.
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Re: If you were a designer.

Postby halabar » Fri May 04, 2012 7:35 am

benebarba wrote:
Mannstein wrote:
tinalt wrote:
Why do people say raid stacking like it's a bad thing? I know bliz wants people to "bring the class you want to play," but personally I'd be a lot more interested in playing different classes if they were more interesting to play with things like the above combos.

Stacking is bad.. it's so bad they should invent a new definition of bad just for it...


pretty much this ^

Class stacking is directly caused by encounters favoring particular classes/specs (imbalance). If you in a guild which will use available advantages, you're going to stack. Which means you either keep a huge roster of players (or a constantly changing one, based on the content), or your players all consistently play all classes (or a subset), so that they are ready to swap to the needed class.


Also with the shift to more 10-man raiding, any stacking is going to hurt, unless you happen to play one of those "required" classes. Or, in your 10-man group, your main's class is the one that gets left out due to not having your matched pair in raid.

And also with the alts, with the changes coming in Panda, I see a lot more focus on main toons. Given the valor changes and new rep bonuses, you are more likely going to spend a lot more time grinding on your main to boost it as much as possible. It's not going to be like 4.3 where you were done with valor gear in 4 weeks. So having a mechanism that may force you to shelve that main is not a good thing.
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Re: If you were a designer.

Postby Vrimmel » Fri May 04, 2012 2:13 pm

I think class balance is the least problem WoW has.

If I was a developer I would try to move WoW away from the single player game it has become for new players. I would try to make how the person interacts with other players matter in how successful the player is, even at lower levels. I would force people to have to interact with other players for a reward and encourage social bonding when they meet a player they enjoy playing with.
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Re: If you were a designer.

Postby benebarba » Fri May 04, 2012 4:02 pm

Vrimmel wrote:I think class balance is the least problem WoW has.

If I was a developer I would try to move WoW away from the single player game it has become for new players. I would try to make how the person interacts with other players matter in how successful the player is, even at lower levels. I would force people to have to interact with other players for a reward and encourage social bonding when they meet a player they enjoy playing with.


While I kind of understand your reasoning (I think)... didn't the designers do away with that very thing because, well, it didn't actually work? Group quests got grouped by those who had friends, maybe occasionally by random strangers but many also just asked a higher-level friend or skipped them?

I think more would be done for the group-play aspects of the game if they implemented a 'training room' type thing... so that target dummies and world mobs weren't the only place to practice things. Once I get 5-man heroic geared, all world mobs teach me as a tank is that I may as well pull 3-6 at a time, since otherwise I'll be at it all night.
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Re: If you were a designer.

Postby Vrimmel » Sat May 05, 2012 6:52 pm

benebarba wrote:
Vrimmel wrote:I think class balance is the least problem WoW has.

If I was a developer I would try to move WoW away from the single player game it has become for new players. I would try to make how the person interacts with other players matter in how successful the player is, even at lower levels. I would force people to have to interact with other players for a reward and encourage social bonding when they meet a player they enjoy playing with.


While I kind of understand your reasoning (I think)... didn't the designers do away with that very thing because, well, it didn't actually work? Group quests got grouped by those who had friends, maybe occasionally by random strangers but many also just asked a higher-level friend or skipped them?


Tbh, I think implementation of this style of gameplay is rather complex as it deals with the erratic concept of human beheaviour, and it would take a lot of thought and discussion to come up with a good system.

Regarding your example. Although I don't see group quests as a very significant social tool, I definately believe they have their place and benefit the social aspect of the game. Sure, sometimes they will get a higher level to do it the easy way, and that's totally fine. It is still a significant form of social interaction with other player. One player does you a favor and unless you are an asshole and don't care about what people think of you, you would repay the favor in some form if needed. In any way the two players get to know each other better. Maybe this is the only time you will interact with that player, but it might be one of those times where you get a new friend. It is an opportunity for interaction. Maybe these people have already been friends for a while, and that is fine too. The point is for newer players to interact with other players and learn that telling others "stfu n00b" might not make them like you.
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Re: If you were a designer.

Postby Ironshield » Sun May 06, 2012 12:08 am

I would like to see lower level dungeons rebalanced to require people to play their role. They would all need to be shortened, but Bosses shouldn't be able to be tanked by a rogue. Or a Ret Paladin for that matter. How is a new tank meant to learn his / her trade if they can't be allowed to plan pulls and hold some aggro etc...

I would also like to see them introduce a mirror level training dummy or seven. Why bother with 60 / 70 / 80 / 85 / 88 dummies? Just have a set of x level dummies (whatever level you are) and a skull level (you + 3). Then you can try out some rotations when you're first starting out and trying to figure out what all these buttons mean. If a level 43 character wants to try something out now, they have to either just watch everything miss the dummy or try it on a mob that may kill you. Easier mobs die to quickly for a rogue to get 5 combos.
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Re: If you were a designer.

Postby Mukat » Sun May 06, 2012 12:36 pm

Those group quests need to be in the near beginning of a zone instead of the end so a player can do other quests trying to get a group, or when you finish the zone you can go overpower the group quest by yourself. It's been since 2 days after cata release that I've done a group quest (coc) with only people that also needed it at the appropriate level.
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