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Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:00 am

Winkle wrote:Fights like ultraxion, spine, etc can be sighted as DPS checks, but then again they were killed at 0% so for some they effectively were no harder than morchok in terms of DPS.


Eh, whether a boss is killed at 0% or not is no indication of its difficulty. Tiers 11-13 were all cleared completely before any raid-wide nerfs, that doesn't make the dps requirements of one fight equivalent to the rest. Spine required a lot of class stacking and alt raids to gear up those classes that you wanted to stack as well as very precise execution (even for the world first guild, and they wiped 400 or so times); Morchok required not falling asleep for 6 minutes.

Obviously dps checks are subjective, but the maximum entry point for going into an encounter is fixed, not like anyone could attempt Ultraxion heroic with an average raid ilevel of 400+ in the first three weeks of heroic. Some guilds had the ability to be closer to the maximum theoretical entry point and would have found some dps checks less of an issue (for example Ultraxion dps reqs were only an issue for us the first reset, we killed it second and every subsequent kill was easier and easier - if we'd have farmed one or two more normal alt runs and had all our legendaries in the first reset we'd have killed it in first week) but it's easy enough to see that the dps required to beat enrage on Ultraxion compared to the potential dps output of a week 1 raid is a lot higher than to defeat Morchok.

tlitp wrote:1. Did Cataclysm pack any encounters where DPS went for unorthodox specs/glyphs ? Mel already said that it wasn't the case, but (e.g.) Rogues had to do it for V&T. Any other such occurrences ?

2. Did Cataclysm pack any encounters where getting DPS blown up early in the fight meant (a call for) a wipe ? You know, stuff like original Loatheb or Archimonde.

3. Did Cataclysm pack any encounters with (almost) no room for error recovery, as far as DPS goes ? See Rogues on Reliquary - you did it right, or you didn't do it at all.

4. Were there encounters which almost made you think "not going to happen; not now, not tomorrow, not anytime soon" ? Stuff like Alone in the Darkness (or the "bugged" Ouro*/C'thun/Solarian/Vashj, which I've actually experienced myself), brick walls at their finest.



1. It depends to what degree you mean. Are you just asking about survivability? There are lots and lots of examples of tweaks that were made for extra utility or a more optimal dps profile for the particular encounter, not sure those are of interest to you though.

2. On 25 man to have four people die that early on in the fight as to exhaust your combat reses without it being a complete wipe is pretty rare. On 10 man not having the combat res available in the first place is a lot more common, and yes trying to 9-man the harder dps checks early on in an instance's cycle was futile.

3. Not sure if you're just asking about utility here. Screwing up interrupts on Morchok heroic had the potential to be a fast wipe, wasn't quite so unforgiving as reliquary though. Omnotron and nefarian heroic was also very sensirive to proper interrupts, Halfus/Ascendant Council/Cho'gall heroic also, but less so. If you're talking about DPS as well, there's plenty of examples where failing to kill some add quick enough or break a barrier fast enough leads to a very fast wipe. Maybe closer to what you're talking about, but if the frost dk kiting adds on conclave 25 heroic failed they would die and the fight would be most likely unrecoverable unless it was almost over, even if they were ressed instantly.

4. First reset of spine heroic tries it was obvious we would not kill it with our main roster before significant nerfs. Certainly didn't seem unkillable but it was obvious that we would need to farm gear for some alt mages/rogues to be able to kill it in a reasonable timeframe. Beyond that, no, every encounter seemed progress-able without changing something dramatically.
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:12 am

Rhiannon wrote:[snip] Screwing up interrupts on Morchok heroic had the potential to be a fast wipe, wasn't quite so unforgiving as reliquary though.[/snip]

I must be doing Morchok wrong then... ;)
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:19 am

Oops, Maloriak.
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby halabar » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:24 am

tlitp wrote:1. Did Cataclysm pack any encounters where DPS went for unorthodox specs/glyphs ? Mel already said that it wasn't the case, but (e.g.) Rogues had to do it for V&T. Any other such occurrences ?


It wasn't so much that unorthodox specs were required, but that Blizz's spec design left certain specs really bad at certain fights, and others really good at specific fights. Requiring that hunters are specced into Silencing Shot on Ally, when that's the only fight this xpac where it was needed, and the lack of AOE capabilities of other specs left them out in many cases.
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Shoju » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:32 am

tlitp wrote:1. Did Cataclysm pack any encounters where DPS went for unorthodox specs/glyphs ? Mel already said that it wasn't the case, but (e.g.) Rogues had to do it for V&T. Any other such occurrences ?


Magmaw and Nefarian. I know plenty of guilds (including ours) who used a Frost DK Specc'd into Chillblains (a PvP talent) to kite endlessly. our first kill of Nefarian as a guild was with me specc'd into Chillblains.
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:13 am

Maliorak, Atramedes, and Nef were fights where failure to interrupt could completely wipe out a completely healthy raid in under ten seconds.

Al'Akir was pretty unforgiving, and required everyone to be aware of positioning, proximity, and what was headed in their direction from off-screen at all times.

The Baleroc dance in H.25 required people to dynamically adapt and be aware of who had debuffs, where people were, what to do with countdown, or everyone died.

On progression, we would call wipes early on Chimearon because we knew we wouldn't be able to beat the burn phase.


I can't remember any fights leaving me thinking "What. The. Fuck." the way the fights you cite did. Most of them were, "this seems doable if we have better gear. And if we could replace a third of the raid."
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Worldie » Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:50 am

fuzzygeek wrote:"this seems doable if we have better gear. And if we could replace a third of the raid."

This sentence can sum up very well my experience in Cataclysm in all the guilds I've disband...er...been in.
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Lieris » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:37 pm

Worldie wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:"this seems doable if we have better gear. And if we could replace a third of the raid."

This sentence can sum up very well my experience in Cataclysm in all the guilds I've disband...er...been in.


The truth is leaking out.

In Dragon Soul prior to the 5% buff and the tendon nerf the raid was really all about the DPS but the healers had an equally hard task because you wanted to drop as many as you could get away with. After those nerfs came in any kind of DPS check vanished and so the DPSers became even less important than the tanks.

Same with Heroic Ragnaros too come to think of it.

I think early on especially at the bleeding edge and before any nerfs the DPS and healing (the two are closely linked) require the best performance but after that things start to level out as DPS can get away with performing at way less than 90% of their potential and still achieve a kill.

I thought that T11 was fairly interesting as a tank but after that... not so much.
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Brekkie » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:10 am

Things I think characterize a properly balanced "DPS Check":

1)Are other players in the raid unable to afford to spare attention to compensate for low performance by you?
(In other words, "This is your DPS assignment. You are on your own. No one will be able to help you, and nothing can save you if you fail. You bare responsibility." The answer to this tends to be clearest in Add Fights, where you get a situation where you might have, say, Exactly TWO DPSers who must be able to kill a specific add, no more, no less, and everyone else is busy and cannot rescue those two players if they fail. The entire Muru fight, as well as portals on Yogg Saron are both good examples.)

2)Does nickle and dime DPS make a difference?
(If you are asking yourself if your healing priests have GCDs to spare to toss up a Shadow Word: Pain during a tough burn phase, the answer is yes.)

3)Are you the DPSer forced to make strategic decisions and trade-offs which exchange more risky behavior or increased damage intake for more damage output and efficiency?
(In other words, can you not afford to "play it safe"? Staying in for an extra GCD before running out for shock blasts, and riding the minimum safe distance by a very fine margin is a good example of this. Another would be deliberately eating ticks of Lunatic Gaze on the final phase of Yogg Saron to get extra DPS time at the expense of damage and lost sanity.)


If the answer to ALL THREE of these questions is Yes, then the encounter is a DPS check.

Sorry my encounter examples are out-dated, I'm a crotchety old WoW-retiree.
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Brekkie » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:29 am

p.s. Thanks for the blast-from-the-past that was linking the thread about my DPS Rant. It was really great to re-read that discussion (which took place right as ICC was coming out) with the benefit of hindsight. I re-read all 25 pages.
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:32 pm

Brekkie wrote:3)Are you the DPSer forced to make strategic decisions and trade-offs which exchange more risky behavior or increased damage intake for more damage output and efficiency?
(In other words, can you not afford to "play it safe"? Staying in for an extra GCD before running out for shock blasts, and riding the minimum safe distance by a very fine margin is a good example of this. Another would be deliberately eating ticks of Lunatic Gaze on the final phase of Yogg Saron to get extra DPS time at the expense of damage and lost sanity.)

I'd say Ultraxion is a decent example of this for "today's raiders." How late can you click the button to eek out that little bit of extra dps without dying to Fading Light/Hour of Twilight?

And one might even argue that Ultraxion fits into #2. Every little bit of dps helps when you're first trying to down him to the point that a lot of raids try to single tank/two-heal the fight.

Only thing it doesn't really fit into is #1, as there aren't any sort of adds... just "tank and spank" with the occasional click of an extra button. Though one could also argue the button click is #1, since only you can click your button, and if you don't, you die, thereby making it less likely the raid will meet the hard enrage. (This was usually our biggest problem, as I think we only died once to the hard enrage when we had everyone up at the end.)
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby benebarba » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:55 am

well, and as many an LFR can attest: pushing that button is *hard* :P

Brekkie - it seems like your definition almost requires adds of some kind because #1 implies that there are different targets to be assigned. So that seems to limit what would be a DPS check encounter a great deal.
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:41 am

benebarba wrote:well, and as many an LFR can attest: pushing that button is *hard* :P

Brekkie - it seems like your definition almost requires adds of some kind because #1 implies that there are different targets to be assigned. So that seems to limit what would be a DPS check encounter a great deal.

I think if we were to reword #1 to the DPS having personal responsibility to complete a task that others are unable to assist them with, it might be a better metric. As not all fights with adds are DPS checks, and I'd argue that not all DPS checks are fights dealing with adds.
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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Sagara » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:55 am

Skye1013 wrote:I think if we were to reword #1 to the DPS having personal responsibility to complete a task that others are unable to assist them with, it might be a better metric. As not all fights with adds are DPS checks, and I'd argue that not all DPS checks are fights dealing with adds.


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Re: Summa summarum : DPS role in Cataclysm

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:06 am

I've only done Vezax once, and I was 85 when I did it, so... sure?
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