Paladins are the worst tanks?

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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Dantriges » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:05 am

He was so skilled at char selection he picked the right class. :mrgreen: Yeah I know Dks were in a not so hot spot during FL.

More seriously, every patch Blizzard put a little bit too much in a spec and well the class/spec is just plain better or worse.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Shoju » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:32 am

Fenrìr wrote:We started with 2t/2h (pally/sham), but then went to sham/doo-dad for healing.

And there you go, a blood dk who's class was solo'ing it more easily than others before any nerf. Sure, other classes were as well, just not with the ease of a Blood DK.



Keep in mind, I only tank on 2 tank fights. Last night, the only fight I tanked on was H:Lootchok. Our H:Yor work we are doing with a Prot pally, and we are having tank survivability towards the ends of purple phases. We're doing planning so that our paladin can tank it. Otherwise, we have to shift him to heal, and a healer to dps, and then we end up with an off spec healing and an off spec dpsing, and an off spec tanking.

That just doesn't seem prudent.

I'm sure that by having me tank it, and having our prot paladin go holy, and have our current holy paladin go ret, we would probably get a kill eventually, but I'm not sure if that would be any faster of a solution to get them up to speed at their roles than it is to plan out the CD's, and just execute better.

The big problem I had in FL was H:Shannox. I couldn't tank Shannox without getting gibbed. The other heroics I got down were 1 tank fights. Rhyo, and Domo. I was DPS on both of those.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:56 am

degre wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
degre wrote:No, as stated again and again, minimal changes become less and less important the lower you go for the simple reason that difference in skill make those changes trivial.

Whereas at a top level changing all gems to epic and having that 100 strength more could give you that hairsplit difference between a wipe and success, at lower levels to see the difference you need a wider gap as more often than not what kills you is not a hairsplit but someone fuckin' up a mechanic.

Just yesterday we went to Ultraxxion again, you would think is farm content by now as we've killed him 4 times already before yesterday, still we've had a couple of wipes caused by people who can't press a button when required, and as we all know, a dead dps does no dps and I would say to lower end guilds that's a bigger difference than class balance or a few epic gems.

I'm not sure how that doesn't just exactly prove my point. Lower skilled guilds are often stressing aspects of their raids with their mistakes, as you point out. In a flawlessly executed encounter, no one has to overcome the early death of a DPSer.

Now, I say this again...I'm not saying stats matter more than skill. I'm saying stats matter more for you, than the guild that has much better execution. Skill IS the biggest difference, skill is the best way to increase your success, but skill is very hard to improve on. Execution will improve with practice, but not really beyond your skill level. Things like reaction time, situational awareness, the ability to multitask, tunnel vision, etc don't really improve much after a time. So in the absence of skill, those stats matter a lot more, and since less progressed guilds have less skill it's vital for them to find every other advantage that they can.

In a flawlessy executed encounter, if you wipe is because you lack the numbers, simple as that.

Being flawlessy executed you literally have no other way than improving the output, hence for you is vital to bring the optimal class or buy that one stupidly expensive epic gem because to you makes the only difference you can still make.

On the other hand, in bunch of second grade raiders the class is not the only solution but is only one that helps, but is not vital, and a much bigger difference than the 500k lost to a not optimal gemming, is the 5millions lost for the same dps that keep dying in the fire and you can't ress anymore because you had to ress 3 others like him already, and while dead they couldn't dps either, so bringing a better class or better gear is only one of many problems.

But when top end guilds execute flawlessly, they win.

Second grade raiders are still second grade raiders. You can't get blood out of a turnip. They are going to play poorly and do so quite frequently, so you better have the stats to overcome their lack of skill, or you simply will not beat the encounter.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:00 pm

Theck

I think skill is a mostly static value, there are lots of attributes to it and the major attributes of it are just not easily improved after a point.

One's execution in a given encounter is a reflection of their skill, but quite obviously, execution is not static. Everyone has moments where they lose focus and make a mistake, spend a little too long in a fire, become a bomb and forget to run away, miss some adds that come zooming in or whatever, mess up their rotation a few times, etc even if they are the best play ever. On the flip side, everyone has moments where they are in the zone, focused on the encounter, managing their rotations well, avoiding damage etc. Practice unquestionably makes the "zone" moments happen more often, as you become comfortable with the mechanics, you perform better in not just dealing with those mechanics but also doing your normal job at the same time.

I think you pretty much understand my conclusion correctly.

I agree that better execution dwarfs stats when it comes to success, but I think that is exactly the same for everyone, it's just that the top end guilds are far more consistently executing at a very high level. Those high end guilds have to spend some time learning the encounters and developing strategies, but after that they just need to execute, and they generally do so pretty quickly in relative terms. The added output that they get from their new gear is obviously helpful, but extra output doesn't make the boss any deader, it's somewhat wasted. Of course that extra output covers for mistakes like an early death, some extra damage taken, a slow add pickup, whatever, so they get mileage out of too. But their skill is so good that those are much less common for them, and when they do occur the chaos is managed much better. Less progressed guilds certainly get "extra" stats too but more often have to rely on them because of a lack of skill.

I've spent more than my fair share of pulls with the guild executing rather well, but simply being overwhelmed by the encounter. In fact I can remember these pulls on pretty much every boss that we really had to spend significant time with. Top end guilds, rarely have to deal with that, when they execute flawlessly once they've picked the proper strategy, they usually win. In fact when they don't, it's often so surprising that the claim of the boss being unbeatable at the current gear level gets levied.

The impact of those stats for less progressed guilds leads to kills that would never happen otherwise because they are simply not good enough, brute forcing can be an example of that. I agree that the affects of gear is typically a handful of wipes out of a lot, but I think that is mostly the same for everyone. I mean top end guilds often have the least amount of it anyhow. I think ultimately it's mostly a wash.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby degre » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:13 pm

degre wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:In a flawlessy executed encounter, if you wipe is because you lack the numbers, simple as that.

Being flawlessy executed you literally have no other way than improving the output, hence for you is vital to bring the optimal class or buy that one stupidly expensive epic gem because to you makes the only difference you can still make.

On the other hand, in bunch of second grade raiders the class is not the only solution but is only one that helps, but is not vital, and a much bigger difference than the 500k lost to a not optimal gemming, is the 5millions lost for the same dps that keep dying in the fire and you can't ress anymore because you had to ress 3 others like him already, and while dead they couldn't dps either, so bringing a better class or better gear is only one of many problems.

But when top end guilds execute flawlessly, they win.

Second grade raiders are still second grade raiders. You can't get blood out of a turnip. They are going to play poorly and do so quite frequently, so you better have the stats to overcome their lack of skill, or you simply will not beat the encounter.

No. Just no.

I remember top guilds getting banned in order to get gear to beat the encounters.

I also remember top guilds stacking mages with epic staves in order to have the required DPS to beat the encounters.

Flawless executions wasn't enough, they've got stuck against numeric requirements, in order to beat the encounters flawless execution wasn't enough and they were forced to swap classes and get gear, because previous to that they were executing it flawlessly, and failing.

Hence, when you do a flawless performance and is still not enough, you have no other choices than ramp up the number, is your only solution.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:30 pm

Yes just yes. Sure it happens, I never said any of this was absolute. Lower skilled guilds run into that sort of issue too, sometimes all they can do is wait until they get more gear.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:36 pm

Except by the time the lower guild gets to the encounter, the numbers are already more in their favour than they were for the first week guild.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:57 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Except by the time the lower guild gets to the encounter, the numbers are already more in their favour than they were for the first week guild.

Right and they need those precisely because they lack skill, otherwise they'd have beaten it already. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think the output of the lesser skilled guild is higher on week 10 when they beat a boss than it was for the top end guild in week 1. It's that the lesser guild requires more gear to get their output to the level necessary to beat the encounter.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Weebey » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:23 pm

I agree that better execution dwarfs stats when it comes to success, but I think that is exactly the same for everyone, it's just that the top end guilds are far more consistently executing at a very high level. Those high end guilds have to spend some time learning the encounters and developing strategies, but after that they just need to execute, and they generally do so pretty quickly in relative terms. The added output that they get from their new gear is obviously helpful, but extra output doesn't make the boss any deader, it's somewhat wasted. Of course that extra output covers for mistakes like an early death, some extra damage taken, a slow add pickup, whatever, so they get mileage out of too. But their skill is so good that those are much less common for them, and when they do occur the chaos is managed much better. Less progressed guilds certainly get "extra" stats too but more often have to rely on them because of a lack of skill.


As I tried to make clear earlier with an analogy--but evidently didn't get the point across--asking how much something "matters" is really a question about variances within a population. By conceding that the variance in execution--between top end guilds, within top end guilds from member to member, and for each member of a top end guild from fight to fight, the last two of which at least seem obviously true--is smaller, it follows, almost by necessity, that, controlling for "relative" degree of difficulty, all other non-correlated factors--gear, gems/enchants, class optimization, etc--have to "matter" more. So it looks like you've conceded the whole debate right here.

Getting bogged down in the particulars really just obscures the simplicity of the situation.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Meloree » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:51 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I think skill is a mostly static value, there are lots of attributes to it and the major attributes of it are just not easily improved after a point.


Now I know why I disagree with basically everything you've written in this thread. I can't get behind that point at all.

For anyone who wants to play better, there are resources which can help them play better. Situational awareness can be improved, largely through UI design - and I have helped more than one of my raiders in the past improve on that. Reaction time can be improved - largely through UI design, again. Rotations and output can be improved, largely with practice and research. Not being able to move well can be improved - generally by getting rid of the habit of keyboard turning and s-keying.

People who are at their "skill cap" and not in Paragon are probably running into a motivational cap, or possibly a knowledge cap, rather than a skill cap. People who want to improve almost universally can. They just don't always know what the next step is.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby GMPoison » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:50 am

gronc2 wrote:Well, I am not the best tank in my guild... yet. But more and more I am not the reason we wipe. We are just starting to take on the heroics, and even with the nerf we are struggling a bit, but I feel like I can deal with whatever they throw at me if I perform correctly. Despite what is said I can solo tank Yor and Zon and maybe even Madness if I play perfectly, and that is what I am going to do damn it :)

But yeah, good point about others, I tried for thirty minutes to explain why soulshifter vortex was not a best in slot trinket for me as its proc was useless, and they just couldn't seem to hear me. Guess my actions and success will speak louder than my words.

Now if I can just be more successful :)

gronc


You can solo tank everything on normal mode except for Blackhorn. The more practice you get the better you will be at it. We can solo any boss any other tanking class can, maybe just for us its slightly more difficult.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Farfalla » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:00 am

Meloree wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I think skill is a mostly static value, there are lots of attributes to it and the major attributes of it are just not easily improved after a point.


Now I know why I disagree with basically everything you've written in this thread. I can't get behind that point at all.

For anyone who wants to play better, there are resources which can help them play better. Situational awareness can be improved, largely through UI design - and I have helped more than one of my raiders in the past improve on that. Reaction time can be improved - largely through UI design, again. Rotations and output can be improved, largely with practice and research. Not being able to move well can be improved - generally by getting rid of the habit of keyboard turning and s-keying.

People who are at their "skill cap" and not in Paragon are probably running into a motivational cap, or possibly a knowledge cap, rather than a skill cap. People who want to improve almost universally can. They just don't always know what the next step is.


From personal experience I know that it's possible to improve one's "skill". Sometimes it's through practice and experience, and it can also be through research or being taught/mentored. Sometimes it can be a result of going outside your comfort zone and doing things that you normally wouldn't do and gaining new experiences.

For an example of the latter, during BC I used to raid heal on my priest and PVP on my hunter. For the first boss in Mt. Hyjal, it was advised that the PVP trinket would be useful for getting out of the frozen tombs, so I decided to start doing some PVP healing on my priest to earn the requisite honor. I was already a decently skilled raid healer, but I noticed an substantial improvement in both my situational awareness and reaction times after I had spent time healing in a PVP environment that is intrinsically more chaotic than the PVE I was used to on that character.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:39 am

I never said that players can't improve at all. Let me try to explain this part a bit more directly.

I played baseball in high school, I was pretty good, won lots of local/regional awards, but no amount of training was ever going to allow me to reach the majors. I simply lacked the skill to ever reach that level. Sure I improved as I continued to play and work on things, but those improvements become smaller and smaller in relative output. Having participated in competitive athletics year round since before elementary school, its a theme that I've seen get repeated countless times. In fact, when a player does show a marked improvement it generally garners an award itself. About the only thing that throws a wrinkle in it is puberty, where some kids grow two feet and others 2 inches, other than that, there isn't a whole lot of bad athletes becoming great (or even good) athletes despite infinitely more ways (and time spent trying) to improve when compared to wow.

If you've ever spent time with a college/professional scout, some of that really hits home. They want to see things like how fast you run, how hard you throw, etc. They don't care, almost at all, if you can catch because they can teach you how to catch. Unless the kid is still growing or filling out a bit, it's incredibly rare to eek more than a few MPH out of throwing and running. Scouts know teams probably can't improve your speed much, how fast you throw much, your reaction on the ball much, so unless you meet their criteria in those categories they don't care about the rest. The recent NFL scouting combine, is showcase of those measurements, 40yrd dash time, bench press, squats, obstacle course time, etc very little direct football stuff.

Now by comparison, WoW is much easier. There is very little physical movement, and some of that is even buffered with a GCD. A lot of WoW is mental. With something like WoW with a reasonable effort you will very quickly reach a high percentage of your capacity. It's not hard to learn about what you need to do, that information is easily found. Granted, there are some people who don't/can't put forth that effort and so for them there can be more room, but once you've been raiding for awhile they are a pretty small minority.

That doesn't mean there are no improvements to be made, changing your UI around can certainly yield an improvement (though technically not in reaction time, that's a genetic trait that is extremely difficult to improve much, but your point is true that the player is able to interact with their UI more efficiently resulting in basically the same thing). But...then what? You can only improve your UI so much, and once it's done, it's kind of done.

Farfalla, I don't doubt your improvement resulting from trying PVP, but that was how many years ago? Have you done anything else that yielded as much improvement? I wouldn't be surprised if you answered no.

Now, let me draw all that into our current context. (true story) So lets say after a raid the leader scans logs and notices a few players don't seem to be using the proper rotation. They know talent specs and gear choices are pretty close, because they keep an eye on those things already. So they talk to those folks, tighten up their rotations a bit, and they improve a little...then what? Now they know, they don't really unlearn it. In WoW, once you know the proper gear/talents/rotation and have had a little practice with it, it's kind of hard to find stuff that yields significant improvement (at least to the level that those things do), and even then in terms of total output it's probably in the 5 to 10% range for just a couple of people in a raid, and those sorts of things don't continually occur.

Chances are after a tier or two, you've caught any glaring problem, and then it's really difficult to have marked improvement. Expansions reset things somewhat, but at the same time if it's the same people then they have that much longer under their belt. You don't very often see guilds that are world 10,000 zooming to even say 5,000 without them increasing their schedule or having quite a bit of turnover, and turnover can be harmful as often as it's a benefit.

Now take that context in even tighter to working on a boss, and I think it's entirely unreasonable to expect to find marked skill improvements (aside from what practice yields which is way more powerful than any of this anyhow) as you work on boss to boss. You may find something occasionally, but that's not the rule, you won't see a skill spike on each boss. More often you'll need to adapt to your guild's skill, than assume your guild's skill will raise to some other standard.

In any event, I think this conversation has run it's course for me. I don't agree that every gear/talent/class/enchant/gem choice matters more for top guilds than average or bad guilds (and I think that's a really bad mentality to have) and I haven't seen anything to change my mind on that. On the flip side, I don't think I'm going to change anyone's mind either, and I'm spending too much time getting bogged down in these side tangents anyhow, due mostly to my own failings in articulating my points. At this point, I concede.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby theckhd » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:50 am

Fridmarr wrote:Now, let me draw all that into our current context. (true story) So lets say after a raid the leader scans logs and notices a few players don't seem to be using the proper rotation. They know talent specs and gear choices are pretty close, because they keep an eye on those things already. So they talk to those folks, tighten up their rotations a bit, and they improve a little...then what? Now they know, they don't really unlearn it. In WoW, once you know the proper gear/talents/rotation and have had a little practice with it, it's kind of hard to find stuff that yields significant improvement (at least to the level that those things do), and even then in terms of total output it's probably in the 5 to 10% range for just a couple of people in a raid, and those sorts of things don't continually occur.


I think this is the crux of the disagreement. You're assuming that all of those things are ironed out and "fixed." I think that assumption is completely unreasonable for a week-13 guild, because if those things were ironed out, they wouldn't be a week-13 guild in the first place.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:09 am

I couldn't disagree more, as someone who was an officer in what was probably a "week 13" guild at various times, none of those things were really issues for us or our peer guilds. Guild logistics is much more of a contributor to that status than people who don't know fundamentals of their class.

I'm assuming they are either fixed or probably won't be at this point. Those things don't take much effort to either see or address, and if they haven't been motivated to do it by now, then they are either not going to be motivated, or they simply don't want to operate that way. In any event, it's not a thing that can occur repeatedly. So you may see a spike when those things get addressed, but it's not going to happen from boss to boss, that would sum up to a massive increase in skill that never ends.

I think that there's an idea that week 13 guilds are full of folks that don't know optimal rotations/talents/gear choices etc, and in my experience that couldn't be farther from the truth. If it were, I don't think that they would be all concerned about which class was the best to use in which situation, because they wouldn't know.

EDIT: I guess what does it matter either way though? We shouldn't be making these assumptions at all really. I mean if the OP had said "we are working on boss X (whatever means week 13 guild) and someone pointed out that I don't have the correct gear/gems/talents/enchants etc, is he correct?" we'd check his armory and let him know the correct answer with plenty of statistical theory and evidence behind it. I doubt anyone would say, you're a week 13 guild so that doesn't matter too much, work on increasing your skill. Yet, we are so sensitive to class balance that we conjure up all these notions about what a week 13 guilds means, and say class balance doesn't matter as if they couldn't possibly make the correct decision if we gave them the proper value of using certain classes.

Obviously, I don't believe that all those things matter more for top end guilds, because I think they'll kill every boss regardless, but the average guilds lean on those boosts much more for their progress. You don't agree with that notion, fine, I'm not going to persuade you, but I hope at least we can give more objective advice to these questions.
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