Paladins are the worst tanks?

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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:10 am

That's all I wanted to hear. Good for you for being with a group you enjoy. :)
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby bldavis » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:00 am

Nikachelle wrote:That's all I wanted to hear. Good for you for being with a group you enjoy. :)

honestly, a good friendly guild is one of the best things in wow

i was hoping to see that too when i read Nika's previous comment
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Kelaan » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:07 am

gronc2 wrote:I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression. The truth is they took me in from another server and have been very welcoming and wonderfull, and I love them

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were in my alt's guild on Kirin Tor. After my current one imploded, I rolled a holy paladin (leveling as holy for laughs), and they took me in too. My raid times are totally wrong for them (they raid while I eat dinner and put the kids to bed), but seem similarly super-nice.

It's refreshing to find people that are nice for its own sake, after seeing the bad examples that troll LFR and dungeons.

I can understand their skepticism. :) On the bright side, all your analysis and "I need to do this" comes straight from Theck and Knaughty, for the most part, who have tremendously well written FAQs, so it's pretty easy to back up your claims. ;)
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:11 am

I firmly disagree with the notion that class balance doesn't matter if you aren't a top guild. I think it varies depending on what the balance issue actually is, but often it matters more for non top guilds.

That said, execution is by far the biggest factor and will certainly overcome nearly all class balance issues if execution isn't already quite high. It's also one of the easiest things to improve on, regular practice on a fight will increase your results much more than swapping out various classes will.

We go through this sort of thing with new every tier. As items and skills scale they do so differently across classes, and then there are the mechanics of the bosses that may highlight certain deficiencies of one class or a proficiency of another. If pallys happen to be on the short end of the stick on a few encounters this tier, it'll probably be different after a patch or in the first tier of MOP. Generally these sorts of imbalances are almost never to the point where an encounter can't be done with a certain class of tank, but that doesn't mean the affects don't matter. Only a given guild which knows its members, skills, attempt results, and fight strategy can really make an educated choice for which tank class to use in their circumstances.

If you get the sense that your guild is fair about these things, then I wouldn't sweat it at all. Keep yourself informed about your class so you can offer valid input in these decisions, and play your class well, but I wouldn't be at all concerned that you "chose the wrong" class or something like that. Blizzard makes an honest effort at balance, it's not precise, but usually it's pretty close and it changes from tier to tier. No sense chasing the flavor of the month all the time.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby benebarba » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:18 am

Fridmarr wrote:I firmly disagree with the notion that class balance doesn't matter if you aren't a top guild. I think it varies depending on what the balance issue actually is, but often it matters more for non top guilds.


Of course class balance matters across the game. It would be silly to say otherwise. However, as you said, execution and the ability to play your class becomes a much bigger deal than any imbalances (with some exceptions: DPS casters with and without the legendary staff, for an extreme example). That was at least my point: that how well you play your class and role is a bigger deal generally than if your class is the FOTM.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:28 am

benebarba wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I firmly disagree with the notion that class balance doesn't matter if you aren't a top guild. I think it varies depending on what the balance issue actually is, but often it matters more for non top guilds.


Of course class balance matters across the game. It would be silly to say otherwise. However, as you said, execution and the ability to play your class becomes a much bigger deal than any imbalances (with some exceptions: DPS casters with and without the legendary staff, for an extreme example). That was at least my point: that how well you play your class and role is a bigger deal generally than if your class is the FOTM.

I really don't want to rehash this argument which we've parsed on many different threads, but I want to highlight my point because you missed it and I don't want others too as well.

My point was not whether or not class balance matters, I know that no one is suggesting that class balance does not matter. However, what is commonly said is something like "if you aren't in a top guild, it doesn't matter (or matters less)". Which is what I disagree with. I don't think your skill level necessarily makes a balance issue less of a factor, it can often make it more of a factor, especially when it's something like a tank that takes more damage or something like that. There are certainly balance issues that don't really crop up unless you are able to push a certain skill level to take advantage of it, but generally simply taking more damage from a boss does not fall into that category.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby gronc2 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:47 am

well I am pushing the limits of play time when it comes to my wife, so the thought of leveling up another toon just seems so counter to what I want to do. Basically I will learn to play my Pally to the best of my ability, learn my OS really well, and try to be the best help to my guild as possible.

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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby benebarba » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:51 am

gronc2 wrote:well I am pushing the limits of play time when it comes to my wife, so the thought of leveling up another toon just seems so counter to what I want to do. Basically I will learn to play my Pally to the best of my ability, learn my OS really well, and try to be the best help to my guild as possible.


(emphasis mine)

That's all really any of us can do, right? (maybe some with more alts than others, though I personally couldn't stomach the grind to keep 2 tanks geared and ready to roll, even if I did find one I like as much as my pally)
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby benebarba » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:53 am

Fridmarr wrote:
benebarba wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I firmly disagree with the notion that class balance doesn't matter if you aren't a top guild. I think it varies depending on what the balance issue actually is, but often it matters more for non top guilds.


Of course class balance matters across the game. It would be silly to say otherwise. However, as you said, execution and the ability to play your class becomes a much bigger deal than any imbalances (with some exceptions: DPS casters with and without the legendary staff, for an extreme example). That was at least my point: that how well you play your class and role is a bigger deal generally than if your class is the FOTM.

I really don't want to rehash this argument which we've parsed on many different threads, but I want to highlight my point because you missed it and I don't want others too as well.

My point was not whether or not class balance matters, I know that no one is suggesting that class balance does not matter. However, what is commonly said is something like "if you aren't in a top guild, it doesn't matter (or matters less)". Which is what I disagree with. I don't think your skill level necessarily makes a balance issue less of a factor, it can often make it more of a factor, especially when it's something like a tank that takes more damage or something like that. There are certainly balance issues that don't really crop up unless you are able to push a certain skill level to take advantage of it, but generally simply taking more damage from a boss does not fall into that category.



Fair enough. But since we don't to rehash anything I'll leave it there.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:56 am

We've been through this before, but basically it boils down to this:

Any encounter is not of a static difficulty. The difficulty varies based on a lot of factors, not limited to

i) average gear of your tanks, healers and DPS
ii) skill level of your tanks, healers and DPS
iii) your raid's composition
iv) your raid's strategy for defeating the encounter
v) hotfixes and nerfs

In the first few weeks of an instance being released, i is at it's lowest. For a bleeding edge guild you would hope ii would be fairly high, on average quite a bit higher than a guild progressing the same content a couple of months later. iii covers class balance, and is of course related to iv (all these points are inter-related in fairness). As more videos, guides and discussions occur over the weeks the easiest approach to iv becomes progressively easier to pin down.

To take one hypothetical example: two raids working on Yor'Sahj heroic 10 man in the first week of heroic encounters being available, and then their less progressed doppelgangers working on it 3 months later. Raid 1 has a DK tank, raid 2 only has the option of a warrior tank. At this point everyone has only one reset of gear, meaning several things: the fight will be a lot longer than it would be 3 months later, longer fight = higher chance of tank death. The tanks and healers will be more poorly geared than 3 months later, specifically meaning much reduced probability of each raid having their tank's 4 sets completed. So raid healing will be more difficult one week into content than 3 months later, a) because healers have worse gear b) lack of tank 4 set c) lack of raid wide damage debuff d) longer fight meaning increased strain on smaller mana pools that have to produce more hps while lower spellpower means poorer hpm. With raid healing more difficult, this means less healer throughput (both in terms of raw HPS, mana, and more meaningfully for Yor'Sahj, more GCDs) is available to heal the tanks. So at this point a DK being able to heal themselves for more than twice what the warrior can heal themselves for has a very meaningful impact on reducing the occurence of tank death. Three months later, with both raid and tank damage effectively and directly nerfed due to a combination of factors, tank death has a much lower probabilty of occuring at all.

To pluck simplistic numbers out of thin air, say that DK has a 5% chance of dying per ooze spawn in week 1, while the warrior has a 10% chance. In a week 1 kill you'd get 9 waves of oozes (iirc), so chance of not falling over within 9 waves would be 63% for the DK, and 39% for the warrior. In week 13, say it's 2%/4% for the doppelgangers (for the original, more skilled and now, geared raids it's long been 0%/0%) and they only get 8 waves of oozes. DK has an 85% of surviving until the boss dies, warrior has 72%. Sure, the warrior has a considerably lower chance to survive than the DK still, it may take a few more tries even, but raid stuck with the warrior tank in week 13 will find it much less of a handicap than the raid stuck with the warrior tank in week 1.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:24 pm

Rhiannon wrote:We've been through this before, but basically it boils down to this:

Any encounter is not of a static difficulty. The difficulty varies based on a lot of factors, not limited to

i) average gear of your tanks, healers and DPS
ii) skill level of your tanks, healers and DPS
iii) your raid's composition
iv) your raid's strategy for defeating the encounter
v) hotfixes and nerfs

In the first few weeks of an instance being released, i is at it's lowest. For a bleeding edge guild you would hope ii would be fairly high, on average quite a bit higher than a guild progressing the same content a couple of months later. iii covers class balance, and is of course related to iv (all these points are inter-related in fairness). As more videos, guides and discussions occur over the weeks the easiest approach to iv becomes progressively easier to pin down.

To take one hypothetical example: two raids working on Yor'Sahj heroic 10 man in the first week of heroic encounters being available, and then their less progressed doppelgangers working on it 3 months later. Raid 1 has a DK tank, raid 2 only has the option of a warrior tank. At this point everyone has only one reset of gear, meaning several things: the fight will be a lot longer than it would be 3 months later, longer fight = higher chance of tank death. The tanks and healers will be more poorly geared than 3 months later, specifically meaning much reduced probability of each raid having their tank's 4 sets completed. So raid healing will be more difficult one week into content than 3 months later, a) because healers have worse gear b) lack of tank 4 set c) lack of raid wide damage debuff d) longer fight meaning increased strain on smaller mana pools that have to produce more hps while lower spellpower means poorer hpm. With raid healing more difficult, this means less healer throughput (both in terms of raw HPS, mana, and more meaningfully for Yor'Sahj, more GCDs) is available to heal the tanks. So at this point a DK being able to heal themselves for more than twice what the warrior can heal themselves for has a very meaningful impact on reducing the occurence of tank death. Three months later, with both raid and tank damage effectively and directly nerfed due to a combination of factors, tank death has a much lower probabilty of occuring at all.

To pluck simplistic numbers out of thin air, say that DK has a 5% chance of dying per ooze spawn in week 1, while the warrior has a 10% chance. In a week 1 kill you'd get 9 waves of oozes (iirc), so chance of not falling over within 9 waves would be 63% for the DK, and 39% for the warrior. In week 13, say it's 2%/4% for the doppelgangers (for the original, more skilled and now, geared raids it's long been 0%/0%) and they only get 8 waves of oozes. DK has an 85% of surviving until the boss dies, warrior has 72%. Sure, the warrior has a considerably lower chance to survive than the DK still, it may take a few more tries even, but raid stuck with the warrior tank in week 13 will find it much less of a handicap than the raid stuck with the warrior tank in week 1.

Well you can't include number 5, a nerfed encounter obviously invalidates the comparison.

If you take out that factor though, you can't give the dopplegangers better odds because their skill level handicaps them. When they complete the same encounter they won't likely have much more DPS, HPS, or less DTPS than the bleeding edge guild did when they beat it weeks earlier, otherwise the dopplegangers would have already completed it too.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:46 pm

Nerfs and hotfixes are a reality of raiding, so you can't just discount them.

If you were to analyse the cause of wipes between a top 50 guild progressing on an encounter and a world 5000 guild progressing on that encounter, you'd probably see very different things. For example, Ultraxion, the cause of wipes for us by the end of our first night of attempts was the hard enrage (25 heroic, first reset of heroics). Three of our casters lacked a dragonwrath, one of our core casters was missing, we only did four LFR clears up to that point, two normal clears the reset before (compared to several of the non-banned more hardcore guilds who had a full roster of dragonwraths, 3-4 normal clears, 20+ LFR runs etc). For most top 50 guilds, I'd imagine the mechanics of fading light and hour of twilight were figured out fairly fast. In our case, if I had been a DK and our warrior had been a feral, we'd have killed it that first night due to contributing roughly 12-15k more raid dps. As it was, we got that extra raid dps from the next seven boss' worth of upgrades, epic gems etc and killed it on the first night of the second reset.

Right now a guild that's not yet killed it is failing because they can't handle fading light and hour of twilight rotations, not because their tanks are doing 45k combined dps instead of 60k dps. They're not hitting hard enrage with everyone alive but simply not being able to put out enough dps, they're having 4-5 people dead by 4 minutes into a try.

On the surface it might sound like I'm agreeing with you that due to their lower skill level they need every edge they can get just as much, but I'm not. My point is that at different progression levels it's different things that will wipe people, and when you have to play closer to the edge of your gear and spec's potential to down the encounter, what that potential is, is much more important.

To go back to the Yor'Sahj example, a break down of the causes of all wipes during progression for the week 1ers will probably be a lot different to the week 13ers. It might be something like:

week 1 (warrior)

40% - tank death
10% - enrage
15% - deep corruption
10% - mistimed mana void death
10% - that ranged dps insisting on not standing right under the boss and getting gibbed by forgotten one + fire beam
15% - red yellow black
5% - not killing ooze fast enough

week 13 (warrior)

20% - tank death
30% - deep corruption
15% - mistimed mana void death
15% - that ranged dps insisting on not standing right under the boss and getting gibbed by forgotten one + fire beam
10% - red yellow black
10% - not killing ooze fast enough

The lower the raid's skill level, the more they'll wipe to "avoidable" mechanics. Obviously pretty much all causes of wipes are avoidable with enough practice, but the less progressed raid will wipe more frequently (as a proportion of their total number of tries) to more easily avoidable mechanics than the more progressed raid. So proportionally class imbalances will have less impact on the success or failure of the raid.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:58 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Nerfs and hotfixes are a reality of raiding, so you can't just discount them.
When you are comparing the affects of certain attributes on an encounter, its a given that the encounter has to be the same in the comparison. I was certainly not comparing a nerfed encounter to a non nerfed encounter, so there is no further use of that tangent, since no one is making any claim about it.

Wipes (especially in aggregate) are also not all that useful (if they have any significance at all), first kills are. At the point that a guild is achieving its first kill of a boss that they've had to spend time working on, its output won't likely be significantly different than another guild that also had to work to beat that encounter, assuming comparable strategies.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Aergis » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:55 pm

As an aside and a completely off the current topic, I must admit I got excited when I read this topic title...
If it were true I might come back and play more!

After paladins became solid "real" tanks I found myself getting bored with the lack of challenge after a few years. Like many of us in vanilla I learned tanking before we had a taunt or any other real core tank abilities, which looking back was loads more fun then it is now. Last time I played it just felt like "try to hit the right buttons in the right order, and even if you don't it's ok if you don't bring healers that suck."

A bit more challenge might make it a bit more fun again!
My little 20 something ironman toon is the most fun I've had since they launched ICC.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Rhiannon » Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:40 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Rhiannon wrote:Nerfs and hotfixes are a reality of raiding, so you can't just discount them.
When you are comparing the affects of certain attributes on an encounter, its a given that the encounter has to be the same in the comparison. I was certainly not comparing a nerfed encounter to a non nerfed encounter, so there is no further use of that tangent, since no one is making any claim about it.

Wipes (especially in aggregate) are also not all that useful (if they have any significance at all), first kills are. At the point that a guild is achieving its first kill of a boss that they've had to spend time working on, its output won't likely be significantly different than another guild that also had to work to beat that encounter, assuming comparable strategies.


If you're going to discount nerfs you may as well discount gear upgrades as well, as they have the exact same effect. Looking at simcraft for bis t12 vs bis t13 (so one would hope, roughly 13 ilevels difference) shows a gain in dps of roughly 30% looking at the top 5 specs in each case. So comparing a raid of roughly 391 ilevel (a guild with t12 heroic on farm) with a 397 raid (a guild that's been farming t13 normals for a while) you'd expect a difference in potential output of ~15%. Despite only 6 ilevels, the superiority of t13 trinkets, the better itemisation of t13 gear (ie many red sockets) and the power of many of the 4 set bonuses should support that. I don't know if healing co-efficients provide the same scaling with gear, but even if the direct HPS of the heals isn't 15% bigger, the higher hpm combined with increased mana pool will lead to a similar if not greater scaling with gear.

The idea that only the kill matters seems bizarre to me. Progression isn't about the kill, it's about what's stopping you from getting it. If one tank has a higher chance of dying than the other, or soaks more mana/gcds than the other so that other people die instead, that's irrelevant on the kill when obviously the raid has managed to overcome that handicap. What matters is how many tries it takes for everyone's performance to improve to overcome that issue. How fast a raid kills a boss depends on both how much time they raid and the rate at which they adapt to the encounter, ie how many tries they take. And at higher progression level, class imbalance accounts for a larger portion of the last part, simply because execution errors account for a smaller part.
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