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Paladins are the worst tanks?

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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:08 am

Paladins tanked all heroics pre-nerf. It was undoubtedly easier to use other classes for certain fights - ferals and dks survive focused assault considerably easier, dks take way less damage on yorsahj heroic while being able to heal themselves a lot more, for example, but nothing was untankable by a well-played paladin with healers that are also playing well.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Kelaan » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:15 am

Don't worry about it. It's like saying that left handed pitchers are no good, or that people with blue eyes are not as good at archery: There may be measurable differences, but for most people it doesn't matter.

A skilled tank of any class is going to be a better raid asset than a poorly skilled one of any other classes, unless you're playing at a high enough level where "poor" is better than most of us here. I consider myself an above-average tank, and I know my class pretty well (though I'm by no means as masterful as some here). I've never had any problems on ANY of the fights I've done where I felt I just didn't have the tools.

In every fight that's been "hard", it's been me as a player that is the weak link. Playing a DK or bear or warrior would not help my situational awareness. We have different cooldowns and different mobility options, that's OK. Know your toolbox well enough to know what you bring to the table, and how you can work with your raid team to cover any weaknesses: all the other tanks need to do that too. (OK, maybe not DKs. ;)) Play your class well, learn the encounters, get the "quick explanation" from another tank if you can -- and you'll be fine.

You might consider playing some of the other tank classes as alts (I've done bear and DK, and did warrior long ago before it got changed). Your tanking instincts will still grow, but you will have a new toolbox to master. In the process, you will see that in most cases, it's mastery of your entire toolset that helps, rather than which of the four (soon to be five) tank flavors you have. A good tank will tank well on ANY of the tanking classes.

As others have said: Keep at it, you'll get better. Practice makes better. Just keep tankin', as Dory might say. Alts help you appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of other tanks, as well as your own. You will often say things like "Oh man I wish I could bubble my healer..." or "Man, a bubble would be really nice right there", even if you're also saying things like "Heroic leap is awesome" and "Placeable D&D is totally sweet!".
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Sagara » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:21 am

Simple basic example:

When your team is average, and you get 2 Impales per platform on Madness, The Paladin is the only class that can afford solo-tanking. He won't need Holy Priests or somesuch. Even better, if you plan your CDs right, you can easily have you bubble up for P2.

The other classes need external CDs to pull that off. For the high-end players, it's going to be a wash, as you won't often have 2 Impales, and so any class can pull that off, but for the average one? You just won half a DPS extra by being the awesome paladin you can be, and letting the other tank DPS.

Yeah, the others are good at their thing, but we've got more than enough juice to get them in awe.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Lieris » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:23 am

I can say that at my guild's level paladin tanks being weakest was very noticeable on some fights but it was NEVER a factor that seriously hampered progression. It was however frustrating enough for me personally to regret not having a raid capable DK for Yosahj, Hagara and Madness. You can make prot paladin work on all fights in heroic DS but your healers have to play a bit better to compensate for it. It's not like anything is unhealable as a paladin it's just not a great feeling dying to damage you know that another class would have coasted through.

Not like I ever got benched or anything though and I still solo tanked heroic Madness.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:32 am

Lieris wrote:I can say that at my guild's level paladin tanks being weakest was very noticeable on some fights but it was NEVER a factor that seriously hampered progression. It was however frustrating enough for me personally to regret not having a raid capable DK for Yosahj, Hagara and Madness. You can make prot paladin work on all fights in heroic DS but your healers have to play a bit better to compensate for it. It's not like anything is unhealable as a paladin it's just not a great feeling dying to damage you know that another class would have coasted through.

Just to reiterate, that's the bleeding edge of progression. You were doing the fights with less gear than the average raider, which magnifies class differences. Spending a few weeks farming gear makes a huge difference and mitigates most of those discrepancies (to say nothing of the huge effect of the incremental 5% nerfs).

Class balance matters a lot at the bleeding edge. It becomes progressively less important as more gear (or more nerfs) are obtained.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Cema » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:38 am

gronc2 wrote:Theck could your pally do them all pre nerf?

gronc


Many prot pally did even if the DS nerf happened really fast.

I finished the progress mid january with no T13 gear for exemple -> viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1749&start=19185 (bottom of the page)

Screw the naysayer, just play and do your best =)
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby gronc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:15 am

Yeah I should have asked that differently, I meant could your guilds pally tank on your alt raids do it pre nerf. If I was talking about Theck doing it, I would have said could theck do it pre nerf. Thanks for everyone's input, even if it had been brought up before.

This is a great place, with very helpful friendly people, thanks

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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Shoju » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:04 pm

Gronc, We have used paladin tanks extensively as well. We actually have 3 paladin tanks on our roster of raiding toons between our two "locks" per week. While I'm a Blood Dk, and they are Prot Paladins, I don't think that the difference between our tanking comes down to me being a DK and they being paladins. It has everything to do with ability to play your class effectively, adjust to situations, use your cooldowns, pay attention, etc....

Even at 0%, I can't think of a fight in Dragon Soul (even on heroic) where the fight was just simply not killable because of a Prot Paladin being the tank instead of a DK.

I consider myself a good DK Tank.
I consider Theck a good Paladin Tank.

I don't think that any fight that his guild is stuck on is going to be immediately a kill if I were to tank one night in his place. It's just not that big of a difference.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Fetzie » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:09 pm

The only fight I have found myself to be at a severe enough disadvantage to ask somebody else to tank was Hagara heroic between 0% and 10% Power of the Aspects. And with the 15% there is now no reason why a paladin cannot easily tank Hagara heroic. A warrior could probably kite blood better at heroic spine, but that is something that you can work around without resorting to pulling in alts. Especially with the 15% blanket nerf, there is no tank balance issue in DS 10h and I think that the only thing that is holding anybody back right now is the person at the keyboard, not the armor-plated pixels on the screen.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Lieris » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:57 pm

Kiting on Spine stopped being necessary after the 5% aura and 15% tendon nerf.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Treck » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:09 pm

I did all the fights pre nerfs aswell.
I may not have been on some firstkills, but i was busy with work so i gladly passed to a "superior" tank class we would likely have used anyway.

As for Paladin tanks beeing inferior, as the tank itself, i really wouldnt say so, yes warriors work like us, but take less damage, druids/dks are different, but there was no fight that a paladin had a hard time surviving on compared to the other tanks if you played right.
But thats only one aspect, the "real" killer is our raid CD, and there the others are vastly superior (dks are "weak" but high uptime with low CD)
If it wasnt for our raid CDs beeing unbalanced, i would easily have been on every kill if i were able to.

The fights I was out for was Zonozz (onetank fight, so warrior cuz of shieldwall+rallying) Paladins are even superior on that fight imo since we actually have CDs for the boss (and you can easily survive more bounces with a paladin tank than a warrior)
I was on our firstkill of Hagara, I did end up solotanking the 3rd kill or smth (before the debuff went live, maybe other classes had an easier time with it, but it was still very doable) without issues, as long with a painsupp every other phase, but we used 2 tanks and taunted her around for firstkill, much more safe.
Then it was ultraxion, had nothing whatsoever to do with me taking damage, it was purely cuz of the fact that druid CD gives 30% healing for 40 damn seconds, when we give 20% dmg reduction for 12 sec (and warriors were 24sec 20% dmg reduction, or 25%? without the glyph on that fight)
Beeing on Warmaster was easy, paladin tanks have so many great tools for personal survival that even if warriors take less damage by default, paladins have the means to survive when it matters anyway.
I was also out for spine, and thats cuz we had warrior kiting, and a druid for more burst dps on tendon (whoever tanks the amalgamation could be full dps gear with shield, turns out druid did more damage that way, so we went with that, CDs doesnt really even matter there, same CD the duration doesnt really matter that much, 20seconds is unessesary long (except for the very very end) 6sec if timed right is still like a sec or 2 short for comfort, but not really a dealbreaker.
As for madness, DKs lol with shields, druids seem to survive impale like beasts (not sure why) but again paladins have more personal tools and would easily dethrone warriors if it wasnt for their dual raid CDs.

So no, paladins are not bad, the others simply have raidCDs to make them "preferable", as stated earlier, a good paladin will outperform any other class with a worse player.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby lythac » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:00 am

Aside from player skill another important factor for me -

Commitment to guild, attendance, punctuality and advance warning if you cannot make a raid.

I would prefer having a co-tank Paladin of slightly less ability, lower gear, who signs to raids on time, is ready for raids at start and who will stay in their raid role and in the guild for a long time over a Deathknight who doesn't sign to raids on time, always late, misses raids without warning and causes raids to not go ahead/draft in someones semi bad alt/offspec just to get the run going.

I might have over exaggerated the point slightly :) but at your guild's level of progression player stability has a huge factor on who is the better tank.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby gronc2 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:18 am

I find that to be invaluable, I must admit to being a bit frustrated at always starting a half hour late, and make up sessions being lost because people don't show.

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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:22 am

gronc2 wrote:I find that to be invaluable, I must admit to being a bit frustrated at always starting a half hour late, and make up sessions being lost because people don't show.

gronc

So.

Your guild doesn't like your discussions on what you feel is best for your tank.

Your raids start 30 minutes late.

Your raids are often cancelled and re-scheduled due to no shows.

Tell us why you're with them then.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby gronc2 » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:56 am

like anything you get an incomplete picture of things from very short interactions.

I am new, very new, I know almost nothing about lots of things. Like it was only two weeks ago when I asked how I could put some fish in the guild bank. I was told, just put it in, you have full access now. I said " I don't know how, I have never done it before" I had never used a guild bank before. I didn't realize that when you used the cauldron then you need to go into your bag and get your flask out. So when they question me about gear issues, they have some rightful scepticism.

we have had some cancels on clean ups but that is mainly due to the fact that I am in group 2, and group 2 is group 2 is put together of those that are not as able to be there all the time.

But, they are a great combination of lets have fun while still trying to get through some content. They have the perfect hours for raiding for me. They aren't so anal that I would never get a shot because I am so noob. They are very generous helping me get gear, sending three paladins along with me into lfr so we can make sure I have my four piece, giving me the gems I need ect.

I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression. The truth is they took me in from another server and have been very welcoming and wonderfull, and I love them

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