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Paladins are the worst tanks?

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Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby gronc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:21 am

So I have been getting this a lot lately from a number of people. Even people in my guild. Now I am a nooby, I have really only one toon of any real merit. I can barely play my OS. So it is hard for me not to take this personally. I know its just a game, and just a toon, but I feel somehow slighted.

I was wondering if you all believe this is true, but still enjoy the challenge of playing the character?

My biggest issue is I don't think it is true. All the classes have advantages and disadvantages. Seems Blood DK might be a bit OP right now, but goodness, when I get in trouble I can heal myself for my entire hp in one shot.

I guess if I am honest I want someone to pat me on the head and say, don't listen to them mommy thinks your handsome. But I would also like to here some frank discussion on the merits of Paladin tanking.

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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Shoju » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:31 am

Blood DK is possibly a little OP right now. I will give you that, but in CURRENT content, that is only because there is a large amount of magic damage, and we just have the better kit for that.

The problem with paladins, is that once you are block capped, you take the same amount of damage from there to infinity, and its time to start working on other things. Like Stamina, and DPS, and... Maybe incresing your avoidance slightly.

Your mastery has a finite cap. Just like Warriors.

Dk, and Druid Mastery, has no cap. It doesn't "stop" getting better. Every Death Strike gives me Blood Shield, or adds to my current Blood Shield. Each point of mastery makes that shield bigger. That mastery really has no finite cap that is 'obtainable'. Until I can just remove the ability to take damage from each swing of a boss, My mastery helps me from base, until I can't possibly put more on my gear.

So, since mid T12, Paladin tanks hit a damage plateau of sorts and are stuck there.

It doesn't make them terrible. it doesn't make them awful. We are 1/8H with mainly shield tanks, and our heroic work being slow has little to do with the class of tank that we use, and more with quality of play in a raid.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:42 am

Might want to read this: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32447 (ignore the OP, the discussion that follows is of some merit)

And it's not to do with just magical damage, it's to do with unblockable damage as a whole. E.g. focused assault, devastate, impale. That said current content is clearable with any tank setup, and especially with the debuff level where it is, choice of tank plays a very minor role in successfully completing encounters most of the time.
Last edited by Rhiannon on Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby benebarba » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:53 am

I think Pally tanks have been called bad for various reasons, some of which PUGs have been nice enough to tell me, at least since wrath (didn't play before that, so I can't say). Some of those reasons have merits, most don't. Shoju pointed out the only mechanics-based one I've heard with any merit, and once MOP comes out that'll probably get all topsy turvy as usual.

Let your raid QQ as much as they want about pallies sucking. If you're the tank, you're playing on par with your raid, your healers have no issue keeping you up and you can perform your role as needed... it means as much as any other 'class battle'.

To be completely frank, I think people put way to much stock into a class's abilities/characteristics when they talk about what's OP, what sucks, etc. and not enough stock in how much the player matters. Most of us playing, I'd wager, are not playing on the ragged edge of what our classes are capable of and I think there are some who would like to think they are but they really aren't. It's easy to act like the situation surrounding a world first heroic-mode guild's decisions apply to your average guild... but they really don't.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Cogglamp » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:53 am

I don't know if it's correct to say that warriors have a finite cap on mastery. While they can certainly attain complete combat table coverage, mastery is still useful beyond 102.4% since it translates into Critical Blocks unlike Paladins.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:55 am

Cogglamp wrote:I don't know if it's correct to say that warriors have a finite cap on mastery. While they can certainly attain complete combat table coverage, mastery is still useful beyond 102.4% since it translates into Critical Blocks unlike Paladins.


You're correct, but for current content once a warrior hits 102.4% they should be stacking stamina, especially given how much stamina they have to give up to reach it in the first place. This is true for the vast majority of fights in this tier.

Edit: meh, actually with the debuff active it's probably not any more. Seriously, tank survival is pretty trivial right now.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Cema » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:25 am

gronc2 wrote:So I have been getting this a lot lately from a number of people. Even people in my guild.

gronc


You should just stop listening to people who repeat what they heard somewhere and think they know what they are talking about.

If you're not in a Top World Guild, your gameplay should always be what makes you the MT1 of your guild, not your class.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby gronc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:39 am

Well, I am not the best tank in my guild... yet. But more and more I am not the reason we wipe. We are just starting to take on the heroics, and even with the nerf we are struggling a bit, but I feel like I can deal with whatever they throw at me if I perform correctly. Despite what is said I can solo tank Yor and Zon and maybe even Madness if I play perfectly, and that is what I am going to do damn it :)

But yeah, good point about others, I tried for thirty minutes to explain why soulshifter vortex was not a best in slot trinket for me as its proc was useless, and they just couldn't seem to hear me. Guess my actions and success will speak louder than my words.

Now if I can just be more successful :)

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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Flex » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:41 am

Just starting heroics = will wipe a bunch = people not looking to increase their own performance but blame someone else
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby gronc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:47 am

oh, I didn't mean anyone was blaming me for anything. My guild is actually really cool, and supportive, helping me gear up and everything. Its just the guild talk, not blame.

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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby Flex » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:49 am

Still sounds like blame and setting the stage for something.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:51 am

gronc2 wrote:Despite what is said I can solo tank Yor and Zon and maybe even Madness if I play perfectly, and that is what I am going to do damn it :)

Yor, Zon, Hagara, (normal) Spine, and (normal) Madness are all one-tank fights on 10-man. A paladin can do any of them perfectly fine, because our alt run does so every week.

Honestly, if you're struggling with 10-man hard modes now, with the 15% debuff (or even with the 10% debuff), your guild isn't playing well enough for class balance to matter. As someone else said earlier in the thread (I think it was benebarba), player skill is the dominant factor in performance unless you're in the very highest tiers of raiding.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby gronc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:58 am

It is my goal to get to that level, but I have been playing for 9 months total, and never played any mmo before so... I am still hitting the wrong button at times :)

Theck could your pally do them all pre nerf?

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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:06 am

I raid 25-mans on Theck, which is a slightly different ballgame. If you mean my alt run's paladin tank, then yes, we were doing some of them before the nerfs. Morchok at 0%, Yor'sahj at 5%, Zon'ozz at 10%. Hagara will probably die this week, but it wasn't a tank issue that was holding us back (it was getting lightning phase completed without deaths).

Also keep in mind that our alt run's roster has been pretty unreliable this patch, and we only raid one night for 3-3.5 hours. So we don't really get much time to work on new progression bosses, it's mostly a lazy clear where we spend at most about 30-40 minutes a night working on new bosses, provided we have our usual roster.
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Re: Paladins are the worst tanks?

Postby benebarba » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:07 am

gronc2 wrote:It is my goal to get to that level, but I have been playing for 9 months total, and never played any mmo before so... I am still hitting the wrong button at times :)


You'll get there. Sites like this one help. I think I've been playing about 2 years now, and man, the difference is unbelieveable. I knew I was a noob back when I started tanking, and had friends helping me along but threads here really helped me dial things in. Maybe one day I'll even see the inside of a heroic mode raid while it's still current :P
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