MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:29 am

Nikachelle wrote:And if you're giving a legendary to someone who has even the remotest CHANCE of leaving the guild any time soon, then you're doing it wrong.


It's hard to tell what people on the internet will do.

We built 7 axes. We never had more than 2 in the raid at any one time due to people burning out and quitting. Our first axe quit the game after a month because the process of grinding out the axe ruined the game for him. Our second axe left the guild for Juggernaut -- I'd recruited him at the very beginning of Kara. By the end of ICC it became a running joke that once you get an orange you have to quit the game.

We built 7 staffs. The first one went to a 6 year officer. He retired the 2nd week of DS.

We gave the first dagger -- finished Feb 2nd -- to a rogue with 100% attendance over the last 9 months. He showed up for one raid, and hasn't been heard from since.

I fucking hate Legendaries. Legendary items are cool and all, but if they require an entire guild's resources to make, they should remain with the guild. I know some people feel immense pressure to log on every single raid while they're collecting Ragnaros Snot or Deathwing's Testicles, then immense pressure to continue to raid since They Have an Orange.

Fuck that noise. Bind it to Guild. If someone wants to retire or main switch, they can pass it off to someone else. Hell, have it revert a stage or something. Beats throwing away several weeks worth of 9/24 people's time.

This is assuming they keep the current model, which (to be fair) they've said they're going to change. I'm curious to see what they come up with, and if their implementation addresses guild hopping or more rewards for those involved in the process.
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby theckhd » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:32 am

Nikachelle wrote:Except that that's what this game used to be, and that's when a lot of us started playing it. That's the infuriating part.
True, but not all of us who started playing back then think that it should stay that way. I think having three difficulty settings suits me much better than just one, especially given that without the normal/heroic divide we wouldn't be getting encounters that are as difficult as heroic modes.

That said, I do think there are some things that could be fixed.

-I wish ilvls were tweaked somewhat such that there was still a reward in going back and doing old content rather than just farming the latest LFR and 5-mans. See my earlier proposals on shifting ilvls around such that normal TX loot is equivalent ilvl to LFR T(X+1).

-In addition, with the advent of LFR, I don't think it's unreasonable to re-introduce attunements. To enter T(X+1), you have to have completed T(X) on any difficulty setting (including LFR). In the process of gearing an alt up, you'll probably be doing that anyhow. And since LFR handles all of the annoying logistics of getting a group, it's not as onerous as having to clear normal modes or do lengthy 5-man heroic quest chains.

-Gems could use some work. I see the elegance of the system right now (red for primary, yellow for secondary, blue for STA/hit/SPI) - it ensures that each spec has something they can use in each slot. But it's also godawful boring, even if it's great for tanks who want cheap gems. I'd rather see a system like one of the following examples:

Red: STR, haste, SPI, hit, parry
Yellow: INT, crit, expertise, dodge
Blue: AGI, mastery, STA, hit

This ensures the primary stats are evenly distributed. The secondary stats are also evenly distributed, even though that means certain combinations (STR+haste, for example) don't exist. Hit has to be duplicated in this scheme such that all classes can get it in hybrid with their primary stat. Expertise can go with INT since casters don't use expertise. Still a fairly complicated and unwieldy system compared to the Red=primary, blue/yellow=secondary system.

Another radical (and much better) idea: every gem is X primary + Y of a secondary:
Red: STR, crit, parry, expertise
Yellow: INT, haste, dodge
Blue: AGI, mastery, hit, STA

In other words, plate DPS would always use red (STR+crit, STR+exp), orange (STR+haste), or purple (STR+mas, STR+hit, STR+STA) gems. Leather DPS would always use blue (AGI+mas, AGI+hit, AGI+STA), green (AGI+haste), and purple (AGI+crit, AGI+exp), and so on. Suddenly there's a much wider variety of colors available, and we get away from the silly "put red +40 primary stat gems in every slot" paradigm. If primary stats are going to be so much stronger than secondaries, then this method makes gearing a little more interesting because the secondary stats start to matter more.

-Biggest Wish: longer instances. I don't care for the "one instance, 7-8 bosses" paradigm. I'd much rather have more bosses in two or three varied environments in which to raid, with nonlinear progression options. Even Ulduar managed to pull this off, despite being one instance, by providing a lot of unique-looking branches. Mimiron's area looked different than Freya's area, and both were different than Hodir's area, etc. ToC failed spectacularly for many of the same reasons - too few bosses, too much repetition of environment.
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby theckhd » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:40 am

fuzzygeek wrote:Fuck that noise. Bind it to Guild. If someone wants to retire or main switch, they can pass it off to someone else. Hell, have it revert a stage or something. Beats throwing away several weeks worth of 9/24 people's time.

This is an interesting idea. Maybe you can't initiate a realm/faction transfer or /gquit as long as you hold a legendary from that expansion. To re-enable that functionality, you need to petition a GM to have your legendary transferred to someone else in the guild, as chosen by the GM. Something like that. Previous expansions' legendaries would be exempt, of course. This would also cut down on the "farm legendary, apply to better guild" issue, and prevent guilds from stacking poached legendaries for progression.

The primary stumbling block I see is how you handle guilds breaking up. Server transfer is easy as long as it's a guild transfer - that can be allowed. But if a guild breaks down and stops raiding, you wouldn't want to strand players in the old shell of a guild. I'm not sure what criterion you'd want to use to determine that - maybe something like 1 full month of not raiding, or something like that. If you could get past that hurdle, it'd be a neat idea.
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:45 am

theckhd wrote:-I wish ilvls were tweaked somewhat such that there was still a reward in going back and doing old content rather than just farming the latest LFR and 5-mans. See my earlier proposals on shifting ilvls around such that normal TX loot is equivalent ilvl to LFR T(X+1).


The planned obsolescence of content has always made me sad. It's a shame they don't institute an algorithm to scale dungeons and its generic blue loot to match character levels. Instead of having 3 dungeons to run endlessly, to have every dungeon in the game? Sign me up.

Yes, sometimes you'd have to quit out of Black Fathom Deeps. It would be worthwhile if I could run Dire Maul.

I like having more avenues to keep content active.

One thing that irritates me to no end: shared heroic lockouts. Why can't we dump down to 10H if we've done 25H content? I don't understand the logic of this at all.
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:50 am

theckhd wrote:The primary stumbling block I see is how you handle guilds breaking up. Server transfer is easy as long as it's a guild transfer - that can be allowed. But if a guild breaks down and stops raiding, you wouldn't want to strand players in the old shell of a guild. I'm not sure what criterion you'd want to use to determine that - maybe something like 1 full month of not raiding, or something like that. If you could get past that hurdle, it'd be a neat idea.


On a /gdisband I would have the staff stuck to the character currently holding it, then bind to the next guild they join. You could do some shady things with this, but given it requires a fairly (heh heh) cataclysmic set of actions, I don't think this would be too onerous a requirement.

For guilds that go inactive it's a bit stickier. Perhaps make the final stage Bind-to-Guild, but up to that point it's BoP, so you could downgrade it a stage and take it with you.
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby benebarba » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:19 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
theckhd wrote:-I wish ilvls were tweaked somewhat such that there was still a reward in going back and doing old content rather than just farming the latest LFR and 5-mans. See my earlier proposals on shifting ilvls around such that normal TX loot is equivalent ilvl to LFR T(X+1).

The planned obsolescence of content has always made me sad. It's a shame they don't institute an algorithm to scale dungeons and its generic blue loot to match character levels. Instead of having 3 dungeons to run endlessly, to have every dungeon in the game? Sign me up.

Yes, sometimes you'd have to quit out of Black Fathom Deeps. It would be worthwhile if I could run Dire Maul.

I like having more avenues to keep content active.


problem is the massive class/ability overhauls between expansions. If they did that, you can bet that other stuff would suffer noticeably. If they kept it within an expansion, there may still be some merit to it. Say like being able to actually get something useful out of running a release heroic now. As it is for cata, some are just really easy for JP grinding because of the number of bosses and ease if you're in current tier gear... but at that point, you probably seldom have a need for JP. At least you can still get VP from them though (not sure if it's reduced compared to the HoT ones though, and if you don't have a premade, groups may be kinda ugly or rare).
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby Fetzie » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:29 am

fuzzygeek wrote:On a /gdisband I would have the staff stuck to the character currently holding it, then bind to the next guild they join. You could do some shady things with this, but given it requires a fairly (heh heh) cataclysmic set of actions, I don't think this would be too onerous a requirement.

For guilds that go inactive it's a bit stickier. Perhaps make the final stage Bind-to-Guild, but up to that point it's BoP, so you could downgrade it a stage and take it with you.


You cannot disband a guild that is higher than level 2 IIRC.
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:30 am

fuzzygeek wrote:On a /gdisband I would have the staff stuck to the character currently holding it, then bind to the next guild they join. You could do some shady things with this, but given it requires a fairly (heh heh) cataclysmic set of actions, I don't think this would be too onerous a requirement.

I don't think that would work - if you keep the legendary, you don't want it taken out of your hands when you join a new guild that had nothing to do with making it. If you joined a guild and it bound to that guild immediately, people would be inviting legendaries in just to gkick the toon. It would also open up a niche market of selling legendaries to guilds.

Bind to guild would probably cause more problems than it solves.
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby theckhd » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:04 am

fuzzygeek wrote:One thing that irritates me to no end: shared heroic lockouts. Why can't we dump down to 10H if we've done 25H content? I don't understand the logic of this at all.

It's very irritating, but it's also got a reasonable explanation. 10-man guilds don't generally have the option to convert up to 25 to do a heroic mode, but 25-man guilds can always convert down. So a 25-man guild could convert down to bypass a boss that's much, much easier on 10H to continue 25H progression(say, Ultraxion, Yor'sahj, etc). A 10H can't do the same though (ex: convert to 25H to bypass Hagara).

The concept is that if you're doing heroics, you're doing it as a dedicated 10- or 25-man raid team, and you're locked to that format. The ability to convert between formats for normal-mode is to make normal-mode a little more forgiving for more casual players and PuGs.

So yeah, it can be very irritating (i.e. you can't finish the official raid week at X/8H in 25's and put extra time in on off-nights to work on the next few heroic bosses on 10H), but at least it's got some sound logic behind it.
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby theckhd » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:09 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
theckhd wrote:The primary stumbling block I see is how you handle guilds breaking up. Server transfer is easy as long as it's a guild transfer - that can be allowed. But if a guild breaks down and stops raiding, you wouldn't want to strand players in the old shell of a guild. I'm not sure what criterion you'd want to use to determine that - maybe something like 1 full month of not raiding, or something like that. If you could get past that hurdle, it'd be a neat idea.


On a /gdisband I would have the staff stuck to the character currently holding it, then bind to the next guild they join. You could do some shady things with this, but given it requires a fairly (heh heh) cataclysmic set of actions, I don't think this would be too onerous a requirement.

For guilds that go inactive it's a bit stickier. Perhaps make the final stage Bind-to-Guild, but up to that point it's BoP, so you could downgrade it a stage and take it with you.

I would think a better system is to just not have it bind to account once you've exited. If someone completes the legendary in guild A, which then falls apart, they get the legendary permanently. If they then join Guild B as a trial, it wouldn't make sense for the legendary to bind to guild B; B didn't put any work in towards the legendary, and if the person fails their trial they'd be stranded there.

Of course, that just encourages people to get /gkicked to bind the legendary to them permanently, after which they can go freelance or re-join their old guild. So it might open up more loopholes than it solves.

OTOH, a bind-to-guild Legendary would be pretty cool if it were BOE. You complete one Dragonwrath, and you can pass it around to whomever in the guild should have it. Maybe there's a 1-day (week?) cooldown on trading it or something, to prevent people from swapping it amongst characters from fight to fight. If you leave the guild, the legendary goes back to the guild bank immediately. It makes it less of a personal achievement, though.
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby halabar » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:21 am

Or... Remove most of the guild grind from legendaries, and put completion and skill requirements in place of that grind. I fail to see what the allure is to completing legendaries in guild when the guild effort is really just endless boss farming.

Require some one-time drops, HARD solo quests and perhaps even Theck's attunements.
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:54 pm

I guess the 10/25H split bothers me because we're the exact kind of guild it hurts -- casual raiding guild with a small roster that doesn't have the roster for harder heroic fights, and normals are a goddamn waste of time. We've taken to doing a 25N with alts specifically for Derpwing testicles, and taking a 10H group for "progression." Last week we had to do 25m with 2 socials in blues and two empty slots. Dumb.

The primary problem with Oranges I want to address is the monumental waste of time an inactive Legendary represents. If the major time investment becomes a per-player thing, this becomes unnecessary.

My gut feeling is that the quest is going to start from a drop off an "optional" heroic boss. I can't think of any other way to limit their availability, other than a limited access boss with absurdly low drop rates.

For the record, I would prefer they leave them out of the game altogether; beef up craftable gear that uses rare boe components
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby bldavis » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:28 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:For the record, I would prefer they leave them out of the game altogether; beef up craftable gear that uses rare boe components

as a dedicated crafter, i love this idea

have the patterns available to all, but make the mats harder to come by
so if you have a raider, the mats could be on mobs specific to that raid
i dont mean things like orbs or saronites like in Wrath, make it something like special leather/ore/cloth that can only be gathered in there

i would like that
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby Fetzie » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:11 pm

i dont mean things like orbs or saronites like in Wrath, make it something like special leather/ore/cloth that can only be gathered in there


You mean like the special Thorium in Zul'Gurub, Core Leather in MC and the frozen scraps in Naxxramas?
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Re: MoP Wish List........"I'd like......."

Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:12 pm

theckhd wrote:Of course, that just encourages people to get /gkicked to bind the legendary to them permanently, after which they can go freelance or re-join their old guild. So it might open up more loopholes than it solves.


The system seems to keep guild data in your character data; we had someone rejoin the guild after a year in another guild, and his guild and officer notes were still preserved. So that was interesting; this would prevent people from bypassing these controls.

I don't think it should bind on gkick, either -- just on gdisband.

In my head, you could surrender the object voluntarily, but it couldn't be taken from you (in the event of joining a new guild, for example). The downgrade-to-take makes the most sense in my head as I would argue it's a reasonable compromise. Almost anything would be better than just straight-up flushing, say, 10-15 weeks of raid-effort down the drain.

But, again, supposedly we won't see another bit of rampant idiocy like the T12 Orange. Let's just hope what they come up with next isn't worse.
Last edited by fuzzygeek on Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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