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Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:23 pm

Darielle wrote:
I'm not saying the progression feel is the primary reason, there are several reasons overall, but "nothing to do with...progressing"...you're crazy. Hop on over to the PVP forums and float the idea that they shouldn't get as many tiers of gear, but just enough to stay ahead of the PVEers in PVP, and see what the reaction is. It's a significant reason.


Well yeah, you can't set a pattern that gives people gear and then takes it away. They'll be outraged.

What I mean is that Season 1 came with PvP gear, the PvE gear at the time was better. Season 2 came in shortly, and following that, Blizzard has preemptively made sure that a new tier of PvP gear always accompanies a new tier of PvE gear so they won't have to ever make decisions about whether PvE gear is overtaking PvP gear - it's an automated system to just make a new tier with more ilvls so that PvP gear will always stay on top. As long as arenas and new tiers of gear exist, that's a system that checks itself without them having to ever have a situation where PvE armor overtakes PvP gear (barring Legendaries, bis weapons and trinkets)

It's more than outrage, blizzard does stuff all the time that pisses a lot of people off. That type of change leaves people uninterested.

Also PVP gear has always progressed even before S1. The mechanics were a bit different, but the progression concept is ubiquitous in wow.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Darielle » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:40 pm

Right, but this particular one is directly tied to Arena seasons, which are directly tied to a new Raid patch.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby alayire » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:37 am

rodos wrote:
alayire wrote:
rodos wrote:I think the biggest mistake is having scaling PvP gear at all.


fist of all, if there were no PVP scaling this would make PVE items that much better because they scale. at some point PVE will just have better stats even if they lack resilience.

I was thinking more along the line of completely normalized PvP sets, like in FPS or other purely PvP games. You certainly couldn't have one set scale and not the other if they were interchangeable.

Rewards would have to be non-stat based, of course. Things like the Gladiator drakes, cosmetic items, titles, and published leader boards and rankings (individual, team, faction, and server based). Add a spectator mode for arenas, and have the goblins take bets, so you could fight for fame too - like a pro wrestler or boxer.

That said, I acknowledge that it still "feels good" to make bigger numbers fly up the screen, and to trivialize old content. It's quite fun running around doing TB dailies and 2-shotting things that used to actually pose a danger to me as a fresh 85. PvP-only players are already screwed out of income (dungeon drops, LFR/LFD gold rewards), it would be harsh to reduce their capacity to faceroll dailies or solo old raids for transmog gear too.
the thing is PVP isn't just Arena and BG's. even if right now it's dead, PVP still includes World PVP/action. Let us not forget that Blizzard has stated they want to revive World PVP(quite skeptic about this but whatever) and as such this cannot be excluded. this means PVP gear cannot be useless in PVE since as we all know, quest hubs do tend to be PVP hotspots.
How many of you are on PVP servers and remembers the rush at the beginning of an expansion and the murderous killing sprees that it creates? who remembers the Isle of Quel'danas?

and second, you are mistaken if you think that all PVP'ers are interested only in the pure fight aspect of the PVP. Good gear and big numbers, "melting faces" is what attracts people to PVP in the first place. if you strip item progression from PVP, there will still be some people interested, yet they will lose interest quite soon.
people want to see their characters improve. they need a sense of "growing" to keep them playing, otherwise as soon as the initial craze fades they will simply lose interest. if the rewards are not stat based, they are not growing.
take your pro wrestler or boxer idea. not everybody can be a pro boxer, because you need allot of things to click right. You have to be healthy and more than just physically fit and second you have to work allot to get fit and allot of training. it takes quite a bit to actually become a boxer(pro or not). hence not everyone can become a boxer. Further more even if you become a boxer, not all stay a boxer(for a long time) simply because if you are not good and keep getting defeated you end up quitting(for medical reasons, financial or simply not getting matches). yet everyone can become a PVP player. Skill-less or not you can become a PVP player just by the click of a button. not only that but you can stay a PVP player indefinitely. so what does set you apart from the others? the answer that games came up with was hard to earn gear.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:27 am

Darielle wrote:Right, but this particular one is directly tied to Arena seasons, which are directly tied to a new Raid patch.

Which is totally irrelevant to my point.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Darielle » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:44 pm

Which is totally irrelevant to my point.


Your point isn't really connected to my point that way.

If the game had been designed from the start to accommodate static gear levels and character progression at level cap wasn't gear, that's one thing. That wasn't the case. If you tell PvP'ers right now that you redesign PvP in the way they're plannign to do Challenges, where the gear will be scaled down to a static level, there will be same minor outrage, and some people who like it. I'm sure there'll be a bunch of people who'll be turned off by Challenges in PvE simply because they won't be able to use their amazing gear, although they'll probably get the benefit of set bonuses and OP trinkets and all that anyway, so it's slightly different. But it's good for Challenges because it means you don't cheese them.

But the thing with PvE is - they've been focused on scaling bosses so they're harder (that illusion breaks down more and more with some of the changes they've been making but hey). And one huge facet of that is making things actually hit harder. Fighting a normal Halfus with 359 scaling up to what Heroic Warmaster hits for is a big difference. Removing gear scaling can work, it'd bridge the gap, which isn't a bad thing. But in that scenario, the boss progression would wind up focusing on "Tier 14 has mostly tank and spanks", "Tier 15 has a few harder bosses", "Tier 16 has brutal multi-phase Firefights with Defiles that chase people", and I don't think Blizzard wants that - among other things, it would lock some people out of the higher tiers.

In the realm of PvP "progression", the competition/motivation is to excel within a given season. Alternatively, you can casually have fun, doing BG's and all that to spend time. For the realm of PvE progression, the competiton/motivation is to go 8/8 Heroic. That wouldn't change if gear was static. But Blizzard right now can use gear to let the people who are playing casually gear up, go fight another relatively simply boss with slightly more health and damage, and feel like they've beaten something more - otherwise they'd be stuck doing the same fights over and over. While that exists, they need to have a PvP equivalency as a catch to prevent PvE gear scaling over PvP. In a PvP scenario, that's different - you ARE doing the same maps over and over anyway. You are doing EoTS and SotA and AV and AB and WSG over and over again - that content doesn't change. You are doing Arenas - that doesn't change. Once lvl 90 comes out and the new Tol Barad is in, that won't change for the rest of the expansion.

^ That underlined part is why PvE content right now "needs to scale with gear". That's why they "need" that illusion in PvE, so that a person playing for fun goes up to Morchok and is like "Oh he hits harder, I've beaten Morchok, I've done something, without really thinking Wait a second, that was easier than Shannox". That illusion doesn't exist in PvP at all really - you beat a Gladiator a year ago, you beat a Gladiator now, whatever. You held Stables for 2 minutes against 3 people last year, you do it again this year, you remember when you did it 3 years ago, same feeling. It wouldn't necessarily have to scale with gear if the game itself was totally revamped so that gear all across the board stayed static and doing raids and PvP and all that had different results, but that's the same scenario as now; unless you do PvP for reasons completely unconnected to rewards, 3 months of AV/WSG/AB just makes you sick of AV/WSG/AB and never wanting to do it again ("Don't get bored of doing the same thing because more shinies bro"), or if Blizzard stated putting in new Battlegrounds every patch at the same time as they put in new raid instances so that the PvP playerbase is exploring new maps, new strats and so on every content patch ("Hey, I know you're probably getting bored, here's something new"), but I don't imagine that's on the cards for Blizzard, do you?
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Dantriges » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:01 pm

And well deep down nearly everyone or at least a vast majority likes to get shiny new gear or at least a reward.

We have dozens of loot systems, debates about gear, BiS lists, people gettig excited about previews of the new gear, debates about new gear, etc.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Hokahey » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:14 am

I'm actually pretty happy with what they're proposing with the PvP gear. It will hopefully alleviate some of the issue of PvE gear in PvP.

Currently, Resilience alone is simply not powerful enough to counter certain classes and specs whose baseline survivability is good enough that they can forego PvP gear in favor of PvE gear, granting them a huge advantage over other classes and specs that do not have that luxury. It becomes quite frustrating to be completely destroyed in over 5k resilience in the span of 2 to 3 GCDs simply because your opponents have selected classes that will only be in any danger if you survive their initial burst of damage, *and* long enough to attack them once their defensive cooldowns have expired.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby econ21 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:47 am

Hokahey wrote:Currently, Resilience alone is simply not powerful enough to counter certain classes and specs whose baseline survivability is good enough that they can forego PvP gear in favor of PvE gear, granting them a huge advantage over other classes and specs that do not have that luxury.


Which classes are those? As a Protpala, the difference between PvP and PvE gear survivability is massive - full resilience gear gives you about 50% damage reduction, and you still have a lot of your survivability (your armor, your CDs, most of your stamina etc). Maybe against melee, it's not but against casters, resilience is essential. I certainly would not say resilience is not powerful - it must be the best stat for us (although I gem strength to try to get a bit more offensive power). I can't imagine people forgoing PvP gear in bulk unless they run with a good group (I've read of some ranged dps in organied BG groups being PvE, hanging back and nuking).

It becomes quite frustrating to be completely destroyed in over 5k resilience in the span of 2 to 3 GCDs simply because your opponents have selected classes that will only be in any danger if you survive their initial burst of damage, *and* long enough to attack them once their defensive cooldowns have expired.


Which opponents can do this? I remember my jaw dropping when I ran past a warlock and he unleashed a macro of doom, dotting me with about 7 different things in a few seconds. And DKs death and decay seems to be do massively more damage if you ignore it than our pitiful consecration can ever put out. But I don't have a good feel for which specs are OP in PvP.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby alayire » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:44 am

Hokahey wrote:I'm actually pretty happy with what they're proposing with the PvP gear. It will hopefully alleviate some of the issue of PvE gear in PvP.

Currently, Resilience alone is simply not powerful enough to counter certain classes and specs whose baseline survivability is good enough that they can forego PvP gear in favor of PvE gear, granting them a huge advantage over other classes and specs that do not have that luxury. It becomes quite frustrating to be completely destroyed in over 5k resilience in the span of 2 to 3 GCDs simply because your opponents have selected classes that will only be in any danger if you survive their initial burst of damage, *and* long enough to attack them once their defensive cooldowns have expired.
the sad thing is, this change doesn't address the issue of PvE items in PvP. Resilience already does that in it's current incarnation more than enough because it's the best stat in PvP right now.

The real problem of PvE items is INSANELY op and stupid proc items. which totally relates to 2 things: weapons and trinkets. Some people might make a case for very good 2 items PVE tier set bonuses(like hunters have right now) but they pale in comparison with proc items. this is the real issue: characters fully decked out in PVP gear except that 1 or 2 item that makes such a gigantic difference.

example: Boomkin/warlock with legendary and trinket. The amount of difference those 2 items make between someone who has them and who doesn't is simply absurd. The nerf the trinket suffered that came AGES after people started complaining an mass, all though did affect arena setting is almost negligible in Rated BGS, where you simply get booted off the team if you don't have one, it's that game breaking(and no .. trust me it's not an exaggeration).
every season thus far in Cataclysm has had at least 1 PVE trinket for mele and casters that had a huge impact on PVP and it only got worse and worse.
The complete irony of this is that Overpowered trinkets/proc items is not a new thing, this was a feature since the beginning but it has grown rampant in the last seasons of WOTLK with humans wearing double PvE trinkets(Heroic/Normal combos) and the abundance of "cool procs" like Bryntroll, Shadowmourne legendary that valkyre summoning thing the casters had. Blizzard stated while preparing for Cataclysm that they are "handling it" and everything is under control, then they go and do even more stupidly overpowered procs.

Now they again state the same thing that they are handling it and they will provide better options for PvP(witch btw they tried in Cata and failed because the PVE options were THAT MUCH BETTER) and that they will try and not make cool new procs if they can (which btw .. HIGHLY doubt it). So yeah .. this proposed change they are blabbering about .. it's all about lowering the PVP items iLVL, nothing more. It won't do anything to solve any of the glaring issues in PVP.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:52 am

alayire wrote:The real problem of PvE items is INSANELY op and stupid proc items. which totally relates to 2 things: weapons and trinkets. Some people might make a case for very good 2 items PVE tier set bonuses(like hunters have right now) but they pale in comparison with proc items. this is the real issue: characters fully decked out in PVP gear except that 1 or 2 item that makes such a gigantic difference.

Could you please link to me the insane proc items from t11 and t12?
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:54 am

Also, link us to the MoP PvP and PvE items that you know are perpetuating this problem, please.

It's fine to point out where it could go wrong, but don't just assume they'll fuck it up before you even see what they're doing.


One potential answer is to copy the successful PvE item model into PvP, of course. Replace the current sets of trinkets that proc attack power/spellpower with ones that have a chance to proc a double spell or melee hit, for example.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:58 am

alayire wrote:the abundance of "cool procs" like Bryntroll, Shadowmourne legendary that valkyre summoning thing the casters had.

These all seem to be "final tier" issues, not full xpac issues. And legendaries really only factor into things the tier AFTER they're released, by which point everyone else has the ability to get improved weapons (albeit they may not be quite as good as the legendaries, but better than the weapons they had when the legendary was first released.)
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby lythac » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:21 am

KysenMurrin wrote:One potential answer is to copy the successful PvE item model into PvP, of course. Replace the current sets of trinkets that proc attack power/spellpower with ones that have a chance to proc a double spell or melee hit, for example.


Whilst it might be considered a lazy option a fix would be to duplicate the procs on PvE trinkets/weapons on their PvP counterparts. As long as the PvP items have enough stat allocation awarded to PvP only stats (and no primary stats), then they fall behind previous tier PvE trinkets (in PvE) and are stronger in PvP than PvE trinkets.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:39 am

Yeah, but the PvP stats aren't meant to take item budget. In their new model you'd maybe take the existing proc, scale it for the lower PvP ilevel, and then recode the new version to work kind of like Windfury, i.e., proc has "with x additional PvP Power" attached to it.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:44 am

I'm not sure that solves the issue of being forced to do PvE to get the "best" trinket. Having PvP earned trinkets with similar procs to the PvE trinkets seems the better scenario (imo) since it won't completely hinder PvE trinkets from being used, but the PvP trinkets would still be the better choice.
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