Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby benebarba » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:12 am

alayire wrote:
benebarba wrote:I feel like it's worth saying that even in PVE, you're going to be grinding a lot of dailies in addition to other stuff to afford most 'desirable' things on the AH. And at least for me, that level of grinding is mind numbingly boring. But toss in some farming and crafting (skinning I guess is still 'PVE') and you can make some decent money if you do a bit of research. Just running dungeons and raids isn't some remarkable money maker (unless you're soloing more recent content or farming them repeatedly with a good group, then you can make some decent gold) unless you also play the AH.
that's true .. but on the other hand you do have the option to not buy them and get them in the PVE raids you are already doing since you're into PVE? I don't really see what's stopping you, the only issue would be if it's bleeding cutting edge content and it's not accessible to you at that time, but then I would raise the question why would you need a bleeding edge item if you are not giving your best(because if you were, then you'd be in that cutting edge content and more than that .. said items were designed for the bleeding edge content).


I'll ignore the 'because you suck, you don't need BIS' argument you seem to be making, since it equally applies to PVP (and is a silly argument to begin with). Additionally, for that 'bleeding edge' PVE content, you need a minimum of 9 other players. You need, what, 1 or 2 minimum for an arena team (granted RBGs need more, but Arena can be 'bleeding edge' PVP at the higher levels)? That logistical hurdle alone can be a limiting factor. Additionally BOE drops and craftables are often on sale in the first week or two a raid is released. Not everyone is clearing things that fast.

alayire wrote:that option is kind of nonexistent in PVP. PVP btw also needs money for normal stuff too, like they also have to enchant their items and get gems for the sockets. I could also go further like adding that there are no items for PVP that can be bought off AH that can be obtained via PVP.


I should say that I don't count crafting and AH playing as PVE, but sure, I can see where there needs to be more gold rewarded in PVP. No argument there. However, I do feel like if they do that, it'll have to be done in such a way that it isn't any bigger money maker than say dungeons at the same level (for economy reasons, basically: BGs have no lockouts nor upper or lower limits to the number of kills made). But I'd also like them to fully separate the PVP and PVE games so there will be no more of the 'PVP/PVE made them nerf me!' arguments.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Cogglamp » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:43 am

I always giggle when I hear about PvP players complaining about not having gold. Some of the best professions for PvP are the better gold making professions.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby warden » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:10 pm

Just a side note, while passing through--Anyone who ever had a 5 stack Fury of Angerforge popped on them in pvp deserved to lose. It was nearly impossible to keep 5 stacks up on a target dummy at the time, much less in an active PvP environment.

And with that, back to using my 2.9k resil ret with his Heroic Gurth to torment poor frost mages in BGs.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby alayire » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:32 am

benebarba wrote:I'll ignore the 'because you suck, you don't need BIS' argument you seem to be making, since it equally applies to PVP (and is a silly argument to begin with). Additionally, for that 'bleeding edge' PVE content, you need a minimum of 9 other players. You need, what, 1 or 2 minimum for an arena team (granted RBGs need more, but Arena can be 'bleeding edge' PVP at the higher levels)? That logistical hurdle alone can be a limiting factor. Additionally BOE drops and craftables are often on sale in the first week or two a raid is released. Not everyone is clearing things that fast.
it's not that you suck, you don't need it. I get how you could understand it as such but that's not at all the context. It's the fact that if you don't have the BIS item doesn't affect you because you are not doing the bleeding edge content. it sure helps yeah but it's not the lack of bleeding edge items that keep you getting to the bleeding edge content. let me be perfectly clear: the fact that you don't have that item doesn't make or break your PVE game. PVE fights were not designed to be beaten with the items that fight drops.

but in PVP, the fact that you don't have it doesn't affect you unless the other team has it. and in that case it's usually a game breaker. this is one of the reasons PVE items affect PVP. I'm gonna sound like a broken record but if you can't understand how not having an BIS item in PVP is so different then the same situation in PVE then I'm out of words.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby alayire » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:04 am

Skye1013 wrote:And you can think I'm ignoring what you're saying... but I'm not, I just feel you're blowing it severely out of proportion. If there are 1-2 items per tier that are considered "OP" but are obtainable by anyone with a little invested time, then I don't really see the unfairness.
this is so hilarious it's not even funny. I even marked it out for you and you can't even see it. wow. If you would have left only the blowing out of proportion I would have been ok with that .. PVP complains always get that response, you get used to it after a while.

let me ask you this. is that time invested in PVP? no? then read my first bolded sentences in the first paragraph and tell me how are you not ignoring what I just said? how is that anything but double standard? can you see the unfairness now?

go back and reread your entire paragraph about legendaries where you are contradicting yourself about how BC legendaries are hard to obtain or not. feel free at any time to tell me where did you even adress this(witch i bolded out for you): the problem is running into teams that do have them and the fact that the other team is "packing" is a serious imbalanced issue.

Just in case you think I didn't read it all, Twin Blades were in fact a factor in BC, just not before they were introduced and for some time after (does that sound familiar?). I actually gave you a precedent to underline why someone having access to an item not acquirable in PVP, but way much better then anything acquirable in PVP is a bad thing for PVP, in that case being dual Twin Blades.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:53 am

How is it fair to force people to run dungeons to get the gear to do raids? Sure both are PvE, but what if I completely despise dungeons? I can't get the ilvl/JP through any other means (unless I PvP and convert honor, but I'm not here to PvP, I'm here to raid.)

How is it fair to force people to obtain rep to fully enchant their gear? I play this game to kill internet dragons, not become friends with them.

How is it fair to force people to raid to obtain a legendary?

How is it fair to force people to do solo parts of the same legendary quest chain?

How is it fair that 25 man raids can complete a legendary 3 times as fast as a 10 man?

How is it fair that people have to be part of a premade to do rated BGs/Arenas?

I'm sure I can come up with questions like this all day, but as long as Blizzard tries to please the masses and not individuals... none of them are going to get acceptable answers for everyone, including yours.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Dantriges » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:15 am

I can see that raid items imbalancing PvP is annoying for PvPers.
The argument about the FL trinket is a bit weird though.

It´s not really PvE content, but solo stuff. Yeah you shoot at NPCs but it´s not like dedicated PvE people go yay, I can grind my dailies again.
You could turn the argument around. Why should the PvP guy get to do only stuff that he enjoys and the PvE player has to do an annoying grind?
I understand your point of view but the whle rep grind stuff is annoying for both sides, it´s not a PvE yay, PvP boo thing.

The same about the classes. Do you think it´s fun for PvEers who aren´t of the top DPS classes to be at the lower ranks in the DPS meters and fight an uphill battle, to mitigate the advantage if they are even able to? Our retribution paladin was really annoyed in early Cata with the performance of his char and said it would be better if we bench him and put another class in his raid spot.

As a protection paladin starting in BC, I never saw a legendary made for me. But I think it´s quite annyoing for DPS classes to be excluded from top ranks in the DPS meter because it´s not their turn to get an OP item. Or a healer seeing another guy contributing more or even get a preferred raidspot because he got the mighty hammer. It´s probably a lot more annyoing for a PvPer to get trashed by guys wielding a legandary he will only get if he was member of a raid guild and play content he despises. My personal opinion is that they should drop the concept of legendaries completely but well, they probably won´t do that.

Yeah, the imbalance between classes is clearly worse for PvP as you are competing directly against another class.

But we had these issues in PvE, too. This whole DK shuffle thing from low bob of the tank totem pole to the top, back to low, back to top. Shield tanks so OP that you have pity for the other guys, then you go back to mediocre because some guy in encounter design decided that unblockable damage is fun and btw buff the tanks without a shield.

So yeah the problem is class imbalance. Blizzard will probably never get it right.
the whole thing about grinding dailies. Well, it´s not like anyone enjoys that.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby benebarba » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:19 am

alayire wrote:
benebarba wrote:I'll ignore the 'because you suck, you don't need BIS' argument you seem to be making, since it equally applies to PVP (and is a silly argument to begin with). Additionally, for that 'bleeding edge' PVE content, you need a minimum of 9 other players. You need, what, 1 or 2 minimum for an arena team (granted RBGs need more, but Arena can be 'bleeding edge' PVP at the higher levels)? That logistical hurdle alone can be a limiting factor. Additionally BOE drops and craftables are often on sale in the first week or two a raid is released. Not everyone is clearing things that fast.
it's not that you suck, you don't need it. I get how you could understand it as such but that's not at all the context. It's the fact that if you don't have the BIS item doesn't affect you because you are not doing the bleeding edge content. it sure helps yeah but it's not the lack of bleeding edge items that keep you getting to the bleeding edge content. let me be perfectly clear: the fact that you don't have that item doesn't make or break your PVE game. PVE fights were not designed to be beaten with the items that fight drops.


but in PVP, the fact that you don't have it doesn't affect you unless the other team has it. and in that case it's usually a game breaker. this is one of the reasons PVE items affect PVP. I'm gonna sound like a broken record but if you can't understand how not having an BIS item in PVP is so different then the same situation in PVE then I'm out of words.



I am getting the impression you believe all PVP is created equal. It is most certainly not, and some of it I imagine would be hard pressed to be considered 'bleeding edge', just as in PVE. If you fell that only the RBGs and arenas amongst the top whatever-percent of players is the only thing that matters, I'm sorry, but even the raiders that feel that way don't get the game designed for them because the Dev's disagree.

And actually, it's worse than you say in PVE: PVE encounters are designed to be beaten with gear *LESS THAN* what the bosses/mobs drop, sometimes drastically (HoT 5-mans come to mind - a 25 ilvl difference between minimum for LFD queue and the drops). However, as pointed out by I forget which blogger, there are few if any people who wish to do any raiding (and really any PVE content I'd argue) with the minimum designed gear. For, I imagine, pretty much the same reason people want better gear than their opponents in PVP: Few people want to make things as hard as possible. They want challenge, but they don't want to be dumb about it.

Also, to be fair, I want to point out that I'm not opposed to better PVP balance, even though I don't PVP. I read posts about it, since they are occasionally interesting. I just believe that as long as the Devs wish the maintain the illusion that this is one game, it simply will be impossible. And the devs really still seem to feel WOW is a PVE game with a PVP component (at least at the moment... maybe mists will see things change). And the PVP in the game won't be truly balanced as long as folks of varied gear levels actually are pitted against one another. And if you feel otherwise, then as you say I'm out of words.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 13, 2012 5:49 am

benebarba wrote:However, as pointed out by I forget which blogger, there are few if any people who wish to do any raiding (and really any PVE content I'd argue) with the minimum designed gear. For, I imagine, pretty much the same reason people want better gear than their opponents in PVP: Few people want to make things as hard as possible. They want challenge, but they don't want to be dumb about it.

I believe that was our very own Anafielle.

alayire wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:And you can think I'm ignoring what you're saying... but I'm not, I just feel you're blowing it severely out of proportion. If there are 1-2 items per tier that are considered "OP" but are obtainable by anyone with a little invested time, then I don't really see the unfairness.
this is so hilarious it's not even funny. I even marked it out for you and you can't even see it. wow. If you would have left only the blowing out of proportion I would have been ok with that .. PVP complains always get that response, you get used to it after a while.

let me ask you this. is that time invested in PVP? no? then read my first bolded sentences in the first paragraph and tell me how are you not ignoring what I just said? how is that anything but double standard? can you see the unfairness now?


I haven't been following this discussion too closely, but if I understand your argument correctly (and if not, feel free to correct me), you're suggesting that it's not "fair" for PvP-ers to have to spend any time in PvE content (i.e. 5-mans, questing or rep grinds for faction-specific enchants, etc.). I'd flat-out disagree with you. The same argument could be made for raiders, in fact: e.g. "Why should I spend time solo-questing when all I want to do is raid 25-man hard modes?" You could even try and make that argument about leveling - "why should I have to level from 80 to 85 just so I can play the part of the game I want?"

The truth is that neither PvP or raiding is a "separate" game from the rest of WoW. PvP even less so, as Battlegrounds/Arenas/Rated BGs didn't even exist when the game was released, they were slowly added and accumulated along the way. The fundamental core of WoW is a quest-based MMORPG. It's what ties everything together, and makes us all feel like we're inhabiting the same world. PvP and raiding are branches we can follow, but they will always be a subset of the entire WoW experience.

As such, I don't think the devs will ever stop including important stuff (enchants, etc.) in solo play. Just as it's not unreasonable for a raider to spend 10 minutes a day for a week or two doing dailies to unlock a faction-specific reward, it's not unreasonable for an arena player to do the same thing. Ultimately, those little diversions keep the game from turning into "log on, do 10 arena games, log off and play LoL/DOTA/etc." Or in a raider's case, "log on, raid, log off and play SWTOR." The little daily things keep the world feeling alive because you have to interact with it on a more personal level.

That said, I do agree that raid-based rewards should not be supremely powerful in PvP. The game shouldn't be expecting you to take part in raiding just so you can keep up in PvP. While there are lots of people that enjoy doing both, there are also lots of us who only do one or the other. Things like legendaries and raid-faction rewards shouldn't be too strong in PvP. Usable? Sure. On-par with items available via PvP? That's probably fine too as long as the PvP reward is easily accessible. But they should really never be so good as to expect players to have to join a raid team just so they can reach Gladiator in arenas.

But rewards from things like the Molten Front or Therazane/Wildhammer/etc. dailies are completely fair game, in my opinion. They're rewards you can complete on your own, at your own pace, and are available to anyone who wants to put the time in. I don't think it's any more unreasonable to expect a PvP player to spend 15 minutes doing dailies than it is to expect a raider to do so.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby alayire » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:20 am

benebarba wrote:I am getting the impression you believe all PVP is created equal. It is most certainly not, and some of it I imagine would be hard pressed to be considered 'bleeding edge', just as in PVE.
I'm sorry I'm having a hard time understanding what it is you mean to say by this. Could you clarify what exactly you mean about not equal? also some of what(PVP ?) do you imagine would be hard pressed to be considered bleeding edge? who exactly would be hard pressed? why would it matter since I haven't even said anything about bleeding edge other than in a PVE context.

let me give you an example to work with about PVP and equality: 2 RPM(rogue priest mage) meet each other in the arena. Given even skill of players(arbitrary I know) what exactly about this fight should not be equal?

*sigh, again* here's the difference, you get BIS items to have an easier time in PVE, you're forced to get the BIS items to have equal footing in PVP. where as in PVE you have the option to do PVE to get that item, you don't have the same option to do PVP to get that item in PVP? does that sound about right to you?
People don't want better gear then their opponents in PVP. if it so happens yes, as you've mentioned not many people would intentionally lower their gear. They want the better gear to have equal chances with the other team you are fighting with. There is no equivalent in PVE for this, unless you are competing for first kills?? *Sigh* I cannot believe I have to spell it out like this.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby alayire » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:17 am

theckhd wrote:I haven't been following this discussion too closely, but if I understand your argument correctly (and if not, feel free to correct me), you're suggesting that it's not "fair" for PvP-ers to have to spend any time in PvE content (i.e. 5-mans, questing or rep grinds for faction-specific enchants, etc.). I'd flat-out disagree with you. The same argument could be made for raiders, in fact: e.g. "Why should I spend time solo-questing when all I want to do is raid 25-man hard modes?" You could even try and make that argument about leveling - "why should I have to level from 80 to 85 just so I can play the part of the game I want?"
that is true in a certain degree theckh and yes you made a good point about it. But here's the thing, a normal PVP guy has to farm his starting PVP gear before he can start doing PVP just like the average PVE'er has to. he has to get to a level of equipment where he can have a decent chance against better equipped players in order to compete(if he so chooses). Of course he can be carried, but the same can be said about PVE. Yes, there is that difference that in PVP there is that lower threshold, where you can earn some points by doing almost nothing (you are still required to do some stuff, just not to win). But the same as in PVE you will never get into high ratings in PVP if you don't have the items.
so you have to farm the PVP items, because they are the stepping stone of getting into rated PVP, then you have to farm for PVE items too. where as for PVE you have to farm dungeons as a stepping stone for getting into RAIDS and .. that's it.

I have not questioned how much PVE or PVP do you have to grind in order to get an item or how much of it is reasonable. I merely pointed out that it's not OK to say that: it's not reasonable to ask someone to farm PVP in order to get a PVP item you want to use in PVE, but then go around to say it's not unreasonable to farm PVE to get an item to use in PVP, because you do it anyway? because that's just double standard.

about enchants and gems and reputation enchants, well truth is we'd be delighted to use/get these by doing PVP, but the option(for the most part) just isn't there(besides some recipes), so people either pay up or farm some PVE but these are minute . The same is true for leveling, but Blizzard so graciously introduced leveling through BG's. you could argue here about what is much better/faster but atleast the option is present.

The truth is that neither PvP or raiding is a "separate" game from the rest of WoW. PvP even less so, as Battlegrounds/Arenas/Rated BGs didn't even exist when the game was released, they were slowly added and accumulated along the way. The fundamental core of WoW is a quest-based MMORPG. It's what ties everything together, and makes us all feel like we're inhabiting the same world. PvP and raiding are branches we can follow, but they will always be a subset of the entire WoW experience.
I'd have to disagree here. as much as leveling is concerned yes you are right. But raiding and PVP is a separate world from the questing world. I'd actually dare to say that Raiding includes more of the quest-based fundamentals you've mentioned as opposed to what you are saying that PVP is not as separate. Yes PVP was borne into the game. Yet it is Blizzards choice to make it so, to make it competitive and to try to separate it from the PVE. do note that the separation came as an attempt to allow for fare competition.
edit: ok .. maybe not completely disjointed but they are pretty much in their own bubble inside the bigger bubble.

As such, I don't think the devs will ever stop including important stuff (enchants, etc.) in solo play. Just as it's not unreasonable for a raider to spend 10 minutes a day for a week or two doing dailies to unlock a faction-specific reward, it's not unreasonable for an arena player to do the same thing. Ultimately, those little diversions keep the game from turning into "log on, do 10 arena games, log off and play LoL/DOTA/etc." Or in a raider's case, "log on, raid, log off and play SWTOR." The little daily things keep the world feeling alive because you have to interact with it on a more personal level.
yes you have a good point. the only difference is that when an PVP'er needs to farm for a faction-specific rewards it is so because that is an anomaly. the PVE guy has way more incentives to unlock faction-specific rewards and rarely if ever it's just that one little thing.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:56 am

alayire wrote:
theckhd wrote:I haven't been following this discussion too closely, but if I understand your argument correctly (and if not, feel free to correct me), you're suggesting that it's not "fair" for PvP-ers to have to spend any time in PvE content (i.e. 5-mans, questing or rep grinds for faction-specific enchants, etc.). I'd flat-out disagree with you. The same argument could be made for raiders, in fact: e.g. "Why should I spend time solo-questing when all I want to do is raid 25-man hard modes?" You could even try and make that argument about leveling - "why should I have to level from 80 to 85 just so I can play the part of the game I want?"
that is true in a certain degree theckh and yes you made a good point about it. But here's the thing, a normal PVP guy has to farm his starting PVP gear before he can start doing PVP just like the average PVE'er has to. he has to get to a level of equipment where he can have a decent chance against better equipped players in order to compete(if he so chooses). Of course he can be carried, but the same can be said about PVE. Yes, there is that difference that in PVP there is that lower threshold, where you can earn some points by doing almost nothing (you are still required to do some stuff, just not to win). But the same as in PVE you will never get into high ratings in PVP if you don't have the items.
so you have to farm the PVP items, because they are the stepping stone of getting into rated PVP, then you have to farm for PVE items too. where as for PVE you have to farm dungeons as a stepping stone for getting into RAIDS and .. that's it.

I'm not sure I see the distinction here. A PvE player has to farm up a bunch of items by grinding dungeons and hoping for drops. A PvP-er has to farm up some materials and get his blue set crafted. I'd argue that the PvP-er has the less tedious grind there, because mats are pretty easy to farm, while drops can elude you. Both players have the same amount of grind for rep-based enchants/etc.

alayire wrote:I have not questioned how much PVE or PVP do you have to grind in order to get an item or how much of it is reasonable. I merely pointed out that it's not OK to say that: it's not reasonable to ask someone to farm PVP in order to get a PVP item you want to use in PVE, but then go around to say it's not unreasonable to farm PVE to get an item to use in PVP, because you do it anyway? because that's just double standard.

about enchants and gems and reputation enchants, well truth is we'd be delighted to use/get these by doing PVP, but the option(for the most part) just isn't there(besides some recipes), so people either pay up or farm some PVE but these are minute . The same is true for leveling, but Blizzard so graciously introduced leveling through BG's. you could argue here about what is much better/faster but atleast the option is present.

Sure. I'd agree with you insofar as the group play aspect is concerned. Nobody should be forced to grind battlegrounds to get a weapon for PvE, and likewise nobody should have to participate in raids to get a killer PvP weapon. I don't think that same limitation applies to solo play though, as long as the grinds aren't too unreasonable.

I don't think it's good for the game if PvP gets divorced from PvE completely. I think it's good to have little things like dailies or faction grinds that are relevant to both parts of the player base, because it keeps us in one cohesive world. It's a small way to keep PvP'ers involved in the story without forcing them to do too much on the PvE side of things. It's not that much different than PvE players having to deal with world PvP or city raids. But again, the key is that it should be reasonable. Spending 10 minutes a day for a week or two doing daily quests to unlock a shoulder enchant seems reasonable to me, especially since you only have to do it once or twice per expansion cycle (though having to do it on every damn character is decidedly not cool - I'm looking at you Therazane. BoA plz kthx). Having to commit multiple hours a day several days a week to that sort of content (i.e. raiding) is excessive though.

Keep in mind that it's not as one-sided as you're making it appear, either. I ground out Baradin's Wardens rep at the beginning of the expansion for my Mirror of Broken Images. A lot of that was with daily quests, but it was in an enforced PvP zone on a heavily-imbalanced (and not in our favor) server, and a decent part of it involved participating in Tol Barad every ~3 hours to get the extra rep/marks. I didn't mind doing it once at the beginning of the expansion to get my super-OP trinket, but I'd certainly be irritated if I had to do it every 3 months. The key is that it was a reasonable amount of time investment, and that it wasn't excessively long.

alayire wrote:
As such, I don't think the devs will ever stop including important stuff (enchants, etc.) in solo play. Just as it's not unreasonable for a raider to spend 10 minutes a day for a week or two doing dailies to unlock a faction-specific reward, it's not unreasonable for an arena player to do the same thing. Ultimately, those little diversions keep the game from turning into "log on, do 10 arena games, log off and play LoL/DOTA/etc." Or in a raider's case, "log on, raid, log off and play SWTOR." The little daily things keep the world feeling alive because you have to interact with it on a more personal level.
yes you have a good point. the only difference is that when an PVP'er needs to farm for a faction-specific rewards it is so because that is an anomaly. the PVE guy has way more incentives to unlock faction-specific rewards and rarely if ever it's just that one little thing.


Again, I'd disagree that it's an anomaly. It's no different than a PvE'er participating in Tol Barad or Wintergrasp to unlock an item. Low-commitment and low-time-investment crossovers like those are good for the game, because it gets people to experience different styles of play and different aspects of the mechanics. That said, it really wouldn't hurt for them to add one or two starter PVP items to the faction grinds. Just as Baradin's Wardens had an awesome trinket for tanking, Therazane or Ramhakan could have a really decent starter PVP trinket on the vendor as an additional reward. As long as both "sides" of the player base are going to be encouraged to participate in the solo/questing content, it wouldn't hurt to have a variety of rewards.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Kelaan » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:06 pm

warden wrote:back to using my 2.9k resil ret with his Heroic Gurth

This is a poster child for what we're talking about here, IMO. The weapon procs on the Deathwing 2H weapons (and, to a certain extent, 2-piece T13 bonuses) are SO good that it changes a lot of things. The damage output of a rogue using the quest weapons and 2-piece versus one who doesn't is pretty significant. Healers with the healing procs,and physical DPS with Gurthalak were doing very differently than those without.

That's part of why they rebalanced the DPS trinkets (that procced +damage) and the tentacle proc on Gurth: it was SO good that having one was a BIG deal in PvP. Giving up ~3% damage reduction from resilience in order to have a damage proc is pretty compelling in some compositions, and just compounds the issues of "balance".

The instant I get a Gurthalak from LFR, I'll be experimenting with it in arenas. It's likely not the best in all situations, but it certainly seems compelling in others. Compelling enough to experiment. If I had full 403 gear in all my slots, I'd even consider trading some resilience for 2-piece T13. (As tank, that worked really well. As ret, I prefer the resilience ... but holy power is huge in arenas too, so I can see the merits of both.)
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:37 am

You have to consider that the DW weapons are outliers compared to most tiers though. Not to say that Blizzard won't do something like that again, but outside of the legendaries, there aren't a lot of other weapons with OP procs (at least not that I'm aware of.)
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Fetzie » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:12 am

Skye1013 wrote:You have to consider that the DW weapons are outliers compared to most tiers though. Not to say that Blizzard won't do something like that again, but outside of the legendaries, there aren't a lot of other weapons with OP procs (at least not that I'm aware of.)


They said back in WotLK that they feel like they can do totally over the top procs on final tier weapons and trinkets because they know they won't have to make another set of even more totally over the top items in the next tier of content.
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