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Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:30 pm

That's always been my default blessing of choice in 5 man content.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby djlar » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:11 pm

It seems they made shamans worthless now..
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:16 pm

djlar wrote:It seems they made shamans worthless now..


I thought that happened in WotLK?
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby djlar » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:53 pm

Naah Shamans where the only ones with bloodlust/heroism in WOTLK.. the ONLY reason to bring one.. LOL..

5% spell haste only for Moonkins, Ele Shammies and Spriests... would be interesting comps on 10 man..
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Jabari » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:18 pm

djlar wrote:It seems they made shamans worthless now..


No kidding, that was my first thought as well.

And what's up with Rogues bringing, like, everything? Here I thought that Rogues were supposed to be the melee DPS monsters, and Shamans lived with a bit less DPS in order to bring all the cool totems to the party. :/

Edit: I mean, really. My Moonkin doesn't even get Earth and Moon anymore, and that's brought by a ROGUE instead??? Really?

Edit2: The MoP talent calculator for Shaman is just ... depressing right now. Subject to change, I know, I know, but there are only like 2 things in that entire mess I'd even be remotely interested in right now (from an Enhancement perspective).
Last edited by Jabari on Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:21 pm

Jabari wrote:Edit: I mean, really. My Moonkin doesn't even get Earth and Moon anymore, and that's brought by a ROGUE instead??? Really?


Assassination brings that buff now.
12% armor is brought by all rogues now, but is a finisher so requires upkeep.
Combat brings 4% physical and Subtlety brings 5% crit.

Also with the move towards one damaging poison and one utility poison 8% magic may be a poison which competes against cast speed and mortal wounds.

Rogues are a fairly potent raid buff class not even including the damage increase of Tricks on other DPSers.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Jabari » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:29 pm

Flex wrote:
Jabari wrote:Edit: I mean, really. My Moonkin doesn't even get Earth and Moon anymore, and that's brought by a ROGUE instead??? Really?


Assassination brings that buff now.
12% armor is brought by all rogues now, but is a finisher so requires upkeep.
Combat brings 4% physical and Subtlety brings 5% crit.

Also with the move towards one damaging poison and one utility poison 8% magic may be a poison which competes against cast speed and mortal wounds.

Ah, because Assassination Rogues are doing 65+% of their damage as spell damage now. Got it! :D

(More seriously - the Armor debuff makes sense. That's what Rogues _should_ do. Increased spell damage? Not so much...)

Disclaimer: I've never, ever played a Rogue or know that playstyle or anything. My impression is that they are awesome melee DPS, but a bit of a "lone wolf" class. It just seems like they have more buffs available than even Paladins in this list, and that's pretty crazy...
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby benebarba » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:40 pm

Jabari wrote:Disclaimer: I've never, ever played a Rogue or know that playstyle or anything. My impression is that they are awesome melee DPS, but a bit of a "lone wolf" class. It just seems like they have more buffs available than even Paladins in this list, and that's pretty crazy...


well, not counting the attack-linked debuffs that are being moved around on tanks and the current ret passive group buff, it's not really hard to beat 2 (kings and might), and only one of those is unique. Frankly, I don't really miss the days of having to do the buff dance to make sure all the folks in your group got the one they wanted (IIRC, wasn't it in wrath when you had the greater and lesser blessings but they were cast on all members of the same class in your group? And so if you had a pally tank who wanted sanc but a pally healer who wanted another you had to use the short duration ones and re-apply more often)... I like the "Druid around? Cast might, else cast Kings. If other pally, cast the other one." decision tree :P

I actually found it odd that rogues brought a group buff period, but I guess that's part of making it so they aren't automatically benched for other classes that do (thinking sub rogues and fury warriors with the crit buff, for example).
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Hokahey » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:39 am

econ21 wrote:
Hokahey wrote:Currently, Resilience alone is simply not powerful enough to counter certain classes and specs whose baseline survivability is good enough that they can forego PvP gear in favor of PvE gear, granting them a huge advantage over other classes and specs that do not have that luxury.


Which classes are those? As a Protpala, the difference between PvP and PvE gear survivability is massive - full resilience gear gives you about 50% damage reduction, and you still have a lot of your survivability (your armor, your CDs, most of your stamina etc). Maybe against melee, it's not but against casters, resilience is essential. I certainly would not say resilience is not powerful - it must be the best stat for us (although I gem strength to try to get a bit more offensive power). I can't imagine people forgoing PvP gear in bulk unless they run with a good group (I've read of some ranged dps in organied BG groups being PvE, hanging back and nuking).


Resilience is powerful, but currently Rogues and Frost Mages in particular can go with about ~3k Resilience and do just fine in competitive PvP, due to the ability to almost completely destroy someone before their opponent ever gets a hit in (when properly played). That's about 2k less Resilience than most need to have any hope of surviving. That's not even counting they have some of the best survivability cooldowns in the game.

It becomes quite frustrating to be completely destroyed in over 5k resilience in the span of 2 to 3 GCDs simply because your opponents have selected classes that will only be in any danger if you survive their initial burst of damage, *and* long enough to attack them once their defensive cooldowns have expired.


Which opponents can do this? I remember my jaw dropping when I ran past a warlock and he unleashed a macro of doom, dotting me with about 7 different things in a few seconds. And DKs death and decay seems to be do massively more damage if you ignore it than our pitiful consecration can ever put out. But I don't have a good feel for which specs are OP in PvP.[/quote]

Frost Mage and Rogue both have the combination of control and damage to single handedly kill a full Resilience DPS opponent in a few seconds, and take almost no damage doing so. In 3v3 Arenas, combining the 2 with a Disc. Priest is pretty much instant high ratings.

Mind you, as a tank spec in PvP, there shouldn't be any class/spec doing that to you, regardless of how well geared they are.

Oh and DnD is probably the single least worrisome ability a DK brings in PvP. Seriously, if I see a DK dropping that for anything other than hunting for a stealthed opponent, I know I'm going to beat them.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby alayire » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:18 am

Skye1013 wrote:Fury of Angerforge and Moonwell Chalice are obtainable without ever having to set foot in a raid/dungeon (Chalice obtained through MF dailies, Fury obtained through AH as it's BoE, or was last I checked.)

Honestly, I don't do a lot of PvP (and even less arena) so my rating sucks, and I don't know the exact mechanics behind the titles (is it based on your rating at the end of the season, or if you reach X rating sometime during the season, you get the title?) If the former is the case, then I can somewhat see your argument, but knowing that the legendaries will be available, why didn't you obtain your rating earlier and sit on it? If the latter is the case... why did you wait until the end of the season to get your rating?

Realistically, Blizzard should completely separate PvP and PvE as far as competitions are concerned. Non-rated is non-rated, so balance the classes as best you can, and who cares what gear you have. Also, don't they have those arena servers specifically for competitive PvPers?
this might be late but..
Fury of Angerforge is BOE, true. Yet the only ones I've seen on the AH(and they were few to begin with btw) were at astronomical prices(when it was relevant before firelands). I'll let you in on a little secret .. PVP does not produce gold at all(unless you sell rating), quite the contrary. so your options would be either invest time in AH goblinering or farm dailies for gold. NONE of which are PVP related.
Moonwell Chalice is obtainable doing a chained series of daily quests that took about 2 weeks to unlock the vendor or there about .. right(and you actually had to complete most of the Hyjal zone quests in order to start it)? If it were say a reputation item, that you could have farmed while leveling and then just strolled to the vendor click and buy then maybe yeah, you'd have a point. PVE doesn't = raids/dungeon as much as PVP doesn't = arenas/bg's.
let me put it another perspective. Remember back in BC when paladins had to get the rating to buy to PVP spellpower mace because it was the best option for a threat weapon for such a long time? People have always complained that they should not feel obligated to farm PVP in order to get items that are better then the ones available in PVE for PVE and Blizzard stepped up. but on the other hand it's ok for PVP people to be forced to farm reputation or trash raids in order to get the best items to do what they like the most, that being PVP right?

you get the gladiator title by being in the top x% at the end of a season. while theoretically there is a threshold rating where you can be somewhat certain you can get the glad title, this does not guarantee it. this is actually the reason why the end season push actually was born, people become more active to ensure they are in that top % and other teams don't just pass them in the last few hours and get pushed down. so while yes, you can get a high rating and then sit on it, you have no guaranties. but then who the hell plays just for glad? people that play PVP don't play just for a few days then sit on their ass twiddling their thumbs "will this rating be enough?" people that like PVP play PVP because they I donno .. like PVP?? wow ridiculous .. who the hell would actually do that? right? people hop teams, experiment new compositions, try out different things, have fun(wow!!) play with friends and other people to make friends .. etc etc. and then when the season comes closer to the end they get more serious about the glad title and start the "push for glad". why would anyone be ok with being forced to grind a high rating to sit on it for the rest of the season because the legendary weapons will mess up the end of the season??? this also has nothing to do with legendaries from previous seasons?
on the other hand people actually do that not for glad titles but for Rank1 titles. these guys usually grind a very high rating, then switch to their alts and play on them. this is another thing altogether with other problems that i'd rather not touch in this thread.

the PVP isn't only about competitions, but yes it does not exclude it. and the real complaint is actually about lack of fairness. because the people that are competitive and driven to win etc etc, will farm those op items and use them. if you look at the top teams they all have the legendaries and the trinkets and the overpowered classes stacked etc etc. they do that because they want to win. the complaint is that those items can only actually be used to their full extent by only some classes/specs, which means that when those items surface they alter the gameplay and people shift in order to accommodate to that. right now you pritty much HAVE to be either a mage, rogue, warlock or shadow priest in Arena because of the PVE items that empower them in order to be competitive.

Flex wrote:woo, an Every Man For Himself complaint!
yes, the human talent only serves to exacerbate the issues of trinkets. legendaries on the other hand .. And no some trinkets are simply overpowered on their own, without another trinket simply because they are miles ahead of everything else. Also lately with the nerfes it had EMFH has lost some ground.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:22 am

alayire wrote:this might be late but..
Fury of Angerforge is BOE, true. Yet the only ones I've seen on the AH(and they were few to begin with btw) were at astronomical prices(when it was relevant before firelands). I'll let you in on a little secret .. PVP does not produce gold at all(unless you sell rating), quite the contrary. so your options would be either invest time in AH goblinering or farm dailies for gold. NONE of which are PVP related.

Actually... looting corpses in BGs provides money (maybe not much, but it is non-zero.)

alayire wrote:Moonwell Chalice is obtainable doing a chained series of daily quests that took about 2 weeks to unlock the vendor or there about .. right(and you actually had to complete most of the Hyjal zone quests in order to start it)? If it were say a reputation item, that you could have farmed while leveling and then just strolled to the vendor click and buy then maybe yeah, you'd have a point. PVE doesn't = raids/dungeon as much as PVP doesn't = arenas/bg's.

Unless you were leveling entirely through dungeons (more PvE) or BGs, then chances are you already had a good portion of the Hyjal quests completed anyway. Also, considering it is a 365 trinket (as opposed to the 378 you could get from raiding or whatever ilvl the PvP stuff was for that tier) I still don't see how it's "completely OP."

alayire wrote:let me put it another perspective. Remember back in BC when paladins...

Having not gotten my paladin to end game content until WotLK... no, I don't.

alayire wrote:you get the gladiator title by being in the top x% at the end of a season... why would anyone be ok with being forced to grind a high rating to sit on it for the rest of the season because the legendary weapons will mess up the end of the season??? this also has nothing to do with legendaries from previous seasons?

Thanks for the info. With that being said, how many devoted PvPers have completed a legendary by this time? I'd wager only those few who are just as devoted to PvE as PvP, in which case there isn't really an issue with PvE/PvP crossover, cause they like both. Anyone that is primarily PvE isn't going to completely decimate someone with a lot of PvP experience just because they've managed to complete a legendary. Similarly, just because a low level hunter has full BoA gear, doesn't mean he's always going to be top of the charts in a BG. He has to have the PvP skill as well (or be surrounded by complete noobs, which I'll admit, is a common occurrence in low level BGs.)

alayire wrote:the PVP isn't only about competitions, but yes it does not exclude it. and the real complaint is actually about lack of fairness. because the people that are competitive and driven to win etc etc, will farm those op items and use them. if you look at the top teams they all have the legendaries and the trinkets and the overpowered classes stacked etc etc. they do that because they want to win. the complaint is that those items can only actually be used to their full extent by only some classes/specs, which means that when those items surface they alter the gameplay and people shift in order to accommodate to that. right now you pritty much HAVE to be either a mage, rogue, warlock or shadow priest in Arena because of the PVE items that empower them in order to be competitive.

Time to play the metagame and figure out what classes "beat" those classes... obviously WoW isn't as cut and dry as a TCG might be in that regards, but still. Imo, if you're willing to do that much extra work at something you really hate, just so you can win, then you deserve to win.

Sadly, this game is about how much time you can devote alongside how quickly you can adapt in both PvE and PvP. Until they do a complete decoupling of the two (which is highly unlikely) I don't think we'll ever see any sort of true fix. People with the time and dedication to obtaining all these "OP" items and learning how to play the "OP" classes are always going to come out on top.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby benebarba » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:50 am

I feel like it's worth saying that even in PVE, you're going to be grinding a lot of dailies in addition to other stuff to afford most 'desirable' things on the AH. And at least for me, that level of grinding is mind numbingly boring. But toss in some farming and crafting (skinning I guess is still 'PVE') and you can make some decent money if you do a bit of research. Just running dungeons and raids isn't some remarkable money maker (unless you're soloing more recent content or farming them repeatedly with a good group, then you can make some decent gold) unless you also play the AH.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby alayire » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:12 am

here's something you should read again, even if you haven't experienced BC:
People have always complained that they should not feel obligated to farm PVP in order to get items that are better then the ones available in PVE for PVE and Blizzard stepped up. but on the other hand it's ok for PVP people to be forced to farm reputation or trash raids in order to get the best items to do what they like the most, that being PVP right?
Skye1013 wrote:how many devoted PvPers have completed a legendary by this time? I'd wager only those few who are just as devoted to PvE as PvP, in which case there isn't really an issue with PvE/PvP crossover, cause they like both.
you'd be dead wrong. leaving aside the fact that most do grind them because they "have to" in order to win does not necessarily mean they like PVE or that they don't(all though most have already expressed their disdain on the matter, just browse the ArenaJunkies forums), the problem is running into teams that do have them and the fact that the other team is "packing" is a serious imbalanced issue.
the "new and improved legendary" are actually damn easy to obtain in case you haven't noticed compared to say the twin blades, so their impact on the PVP is much larger then the old ones. do you know how few rogues even had the twin blades completed in BC? of those do you know how many did PVP with them? it only took one troll(yes .. the horde race) rogue with absolutely no experience to stroll into arena dual wielding twin blades and wipe the floor with veteran and seasoned PVP players to send the PVP scene into outrage. if you can't see why that is "not fair" then I'm out of words.

I'm going to stop here since it's obvious that no matter what I say you'll either just ignore or nitpick just to disagree and were not going anywhere. quite frankly .. if you think there are no PVE items that do seriously affect PVP that's fine, I get it .. but why on earth would you even suggest separating the two? by the by .. this is not something Blizzard is willing to do and their proposed new PVP stats/item system is not going to solve the remaining issues. this is why PVP folk(the few that actually remained) are outraged, it only solves PVP items being used in PVE(AGAIN!!).

ps. that trinket you have no idea why it's op .. it's the obvious on use mastery + frost mages.
ps2. I'm going to laugh my ass off when because of the lower iLVL of PVP items, physical dps classes will be forced to use PVE weapons because they simply have better raw damage that's not going to be offset by the amount of PVP offense they provide and Blizzard will just turn a blind eye to the issue and take ages to even consider doing anything about it.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby alayire » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:30 am

benebarba wrote:I feel like it's worth saying that even in PVE, you're going to be grinding a lot of dailies in addition to other stuff to afford most 'desirable' things on the AH. And at least for me, that level of grinding is mind numbingly boring. But toss in some farming and crafting (skinning I guess is still 'PVE') and you can make some decent money if you do a bit of research. Just running dungeons and raids isn't some remarkable money maker (unless you're soloing more recent content or farming them repeatedly with a good group, then you can make some decent gold) unless you also play the AH.
that's true .. but on the other hand you do have the option to not buy them and get them in the PVE raids you are already doing since you're into PVE? I don't really see what's stopping you, the only issue would be if it's bleeding cutting edge content and it's not accessible to you at that time, but then I would raise the question why would you need a bleeding edge item if you are not giving your best(because if you were, then you'd be in that cutting edge content and more than that .. said items were designed for the bleeding edge content).

that option is kind of nonexistent in PVP. PVP btw also needs money for normal stuff too, like they also have to enchant their items and get gems for the sockets. I could also go further like adding that there are no items for PVP that can be bought off AH that can be obtained via PVP.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:54 am

alayire wrote:here's something you should read again, even if you haven't experienced BC:
People have always complained that they should not feel obligated to farm PVP in order to get items that are better then the ones available in PVE for PVE and Blizzard stepped up. but on the other hand it's ok for PVP people to be forced to farm reputation or trash raids in order to get the best items to do what they like the most, that being PVP right?
Skye1013 wrote:how many devoted PvPers have completed a legendary by this time? I'd wager only those few who are just as devoted to PvE as PvP, in which case there isn't really an issue with PvE/PvP crossover, cause they like both.
you'd be dead wrong. leaving aside the fact that most do grind them because they "have to" in order to win does not necessarily mean they like PVE or that they don't(all though most have already expressed their disdain on the matter, just browse the ArenaJunkies forums), the problem is running into teams that do have them and the fact that the other team is "packing" is a serious imbalanced issue.
the "new and improved legendary" are actually damn easy to obtain in case you haven't noticed compared to say the twin blades, so their impact on the PVP is much larger then the old ones. do you know how few rogues even had the twin blades completed in BC? of those do you know how many did PVP with them? it only took one troll(yes .. the horde race) rogue with absolutely no experience to stroll into arena dual wielding twin blades and wipe the floor with veteran and seasoned PVP players to send the PVP scene into outrage. if you can't see why that is "not fair" then I'm out of words.

I'm going to stop here since it's obvious that no matter what I say you'll either just ignore or nitpick just to disagree and were not going anywhere. quite frankly .. if you think there are no PVE items that do seriously affect PVP that's fine, I get it .. but why on earth would you even suggest separating the two? by the by .. this is not something Blizzard is willing to do and their proposed new PVP stats/item system is not going to solve the remaining issues. this is why PVP folk(the few that actually remained) are outraged, it only solves PVP items being used in PVE(AGAIN!!).

ps. that trinket you have no idea why it's op .. it's the obvious on use mastery + frost mages.
ps2. I'm going to laugh my ass off when because of the lower iLVL of PVP items, physical dps classes will be forced to use PVE weapons because they simply have better raw damage that's not going to be offset by the amount of PVP offense they provide and Blizzard will just turn a blind eye to the issue and take ages to even consider doing anything about it.

For starters, I never said I hadn't experienced BC... just never end game as a pally.

Completing a legendary currently requires you be in a raiding guild that can fully clear FL or DS. If you hate/aren't serious about PvE, why would you be part of a raiding team (prior to the release of legendaries) and if you joined a raid team because of the legendary, why would that raid team select you first? Sure, you can get the 397 daggers relatively easily (so long as you have 8k gold or whatever it is, which goes back to, why can't you afford the Fury trinket?), but unless you have some awesome PuGs on your server, most guilds aren't going to select the "fair weather raider" to continue the legendary path. Also, I wouldn't say the new ones are any easier than the old ones... it's possible to obtain the Twin Blades (or at least one of them) after the first kill whereas it takes a minimum X number of weeks before you can complete the new ones. Just because the old ones were based a single RNG roll each week, doesn't really make them harder to get, and even then... BT was the 2nd to last tier of BC, and required a ton of attunements initially (completion of Mags/Gruuls to get into SSC/TK, then completion of SSC/TK to get into BT, and THEN you still had to get to the final boss and kill him) so the Twin Blades weren't even a factor for the majority of BC content.

If frost mages are the only ones that make that trinket OP... well frost mages have been considered OP for this entire xpac... pretty sure that's not based on a single trinket.

And you can think I'm ignoring what you're saying... but I'm not, I just feel you're blowing it severely out of proportion. If there are 1-2 items per tier that are considered "OP" but are obtainable by anyone with a little invested time, then I don't really see the unfairness. Do I wish that PvP didn't "require" PvE and vice versa? Sure. Do I feel it's completely unfair to require a rep grind to obtain certain items? Not really, though it would be nice if tabards worked in BGs like they do in dungeons.

alayire wrote:PVP btw also needs money for normal stuff too, like they also have to enchant their items and get gems for the sockets. I could also go further like adding that there are no items for PVP that can be bought off AH that can be obtained via PVP.
How do you make your money for gems/enchants/cloth (for bandages)? Unless you have friends/guildies donating that stuff to you, then you already have some form of money making scheme going... increase it for BoE items that are obviously so OP that you just HAVE to have them to win...
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