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Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:51 am

Not sure I understand what you're disagreeing with there. I'm suggesting they copy PvE trinket procs, scale them to PvP ilevel (so we don't make PvE-ers go into PvP to get them) and then use PvP Power to make them actually hit harder than the PvE versions when used against players.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:56 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Not sure I understand what you're disagreeing with there. I'm suggesting they copy PvE trinket procs, scale them to PvP ilevel (so we don't make PvE-ers go into PvP to get them) and then use PvP Power to make them actually hit harder than the PvE versions when used against players.

Ah, that makes sense. I thought you were suggesting to add PvP Power to the PvE trinkets.

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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:05 am

To be honest I disagree with the idea of copying PvE trinkets directly; they have a good system going now where PvP items increase in ilevel but provide the same effects every season, which helps balance. But making the base trinkets to a design closer to those powerful PvE ones and then applying the PvP Power principle to it would work.

Whatever they do with trinkets, they need to redesign weapons for PvP too. Something more interesting than now that trumps raw weapon damage for melee specs. Proc-based weapons as the standard for PvP would be interesting.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby alayire » Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:57 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Also, link us to the MoP PvP and PvE items that you know are perpetuating this problem, please.

It's fine to point out where it could go wrong, but don't just assume they'll fuck it up before you even see what they're doing.


One potential answer is to copy the successful PvE item model into PvP, of course. Replace the current sets of trinkets that proc attack power/spellpower with ones that have a chance to proc a double spell or melee hit, for example.
it's fine to point out you disagree, it'd be awesome if you didn't do it in that "i'm smart" manner.

it also would be nice btw to not answer in Blizzard's name, since you are not responsible for their actions. It's fine and dandy to say, yeah but they can do that, or oh they'll never allow that, but when it happens to go "oh my bad".
If i had a dollar for every time someone pointed out stuff like .. "they will never let that happen, chill guys, it's only ptr/beta, no need to worry" before they actually push that on live, I wouldn't be filthy rich, but I'd sure win some money.

people that played on the WTLK beta pointed out DK were absolutely insanely overpowered(among other shit, like how gimped the restro druids were, ret pala damage etc etc). everyone said chill guys .. it's only beta. do you know what happend? S5 happened .. the worst joke of an Arena season in history ever.

It's fine to point out where it could go wrong
I was talking about the state of things in PVP now. I only mention that I highly doubt that they will refrain from making stupid overpower proc items in MOP because that's exactly what they said in the past but then they also stated that they have to make trinkets interesting and neat so people would want them(that was at the begining of Cata btw in one of GhostCrawler's post). It's what they have done since this game started and continued to do so till now, so yes forgive me for thinking they will keep doing the same.

I stated that the PVP stat changes in MOP will have little impact on the glaring problems that now exist and I stand by my statement. they would never do any cool trinkets for PVP because they can be "easily farmed" and used in PVE. your idea of a PVP item that procs a double hit or spell will never see the light because of PVE. the only way PVP trinkets won't affect PVE is by boosting PVP power and that's it which is probably exactly what they will do.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:26 am

All I meant was that we have no idea if or how they'll address the problem; it's no good saying that what they do won't solve anything if you don't actually know what they'll do. Where in my posts have I said they won't mess it up? All I said was don't assume they already have.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Dantriges » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:44 am

It´s a figure of speech people use all the time.

The whole thing sounds like someone is looking desperately for arguments.

And this whole "you can do this or that in your posts" made me wonder if we have a new mod.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby alayire » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:52 am

Skye1013 wrote:
alayire wrote:the abundance of "cool procs" like Bryntroll, Shadowmourne legendary that valkyre summoning thing the casters had.

These all seem to be "final tier" issues, not full xpac issues. And legendaries really only factor into things the tier AFTER they're released, by which point everyone else has the ability to get improved weapons (albeit they may not be quite as good as the legendaries, but better than the weapons they had when the legendary was first released.)
riiiiight.
let's see s5 when you could get betrayer of humanity that was MILES ahead of anything PVP provided? (yes I realize this isn't an proc item, just a pve item that stuck to my head, it was just one of the higher ilvl than anything obtained from pvp items that dropped from Kelthuzad).
I remember Ulduar had a few but can't remember their name.TOC had the solace for healers(double Solace human priest was impossible to OOM, resto druids only needed one), the Death's verdic/choice for mele/hunters, and the dislodged foreign object for casters.
there were more then enough items that provided a big gap during any Tier, but yes usually the final tier has to most absurd number/degree of opness to it.
Also on the note of legendaries, the Ulduar healing legendary was still used in the Wotlk final tier, it was that good. And by the by, the arena seasons usually have a final push in the last weeks. that's why the legendary actually do impact greatly in the tier they are released because even though they do take time for people to get them, plenty of them do actually have them by the time the season's end push starts. there were plenty of shadowmourne dk/wariors to last a lifetime.
that's not even touching the Cata caster staff legendary, which btw could no problem be best in slot for another season if they so wish to make one before MOP.

Could you please link to me the insane proc items from t11 and t12?
the most obvious was Unheeded Warning before nerf. Moonwell Chalice is an trinket that even if outdated still holds allot of value to frost mages. Apparatus and Fury of Angerforge(this one especially cause humans were able to pop another on use alongside with it) for mele.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:01 am

Fury of Angerforge and Moonwell Chalice are obtainable without ever having to set foot in a raid/dungeon (Chalice obtained through MF dailies, Fury obtained through AH as it's BoE, or was last I checked.)

Honestly, I don't do a lot of PvP (and even less arena) so my rating sucks, and I don't know the exact mechanics behind the titles (is it based on your rating at the end of the season, or if you reach X rating sometime during the season, you get the title?) If the former is the case, then I can somewhat see your argument, but knowing that the legendaries will be available, why didn't you obtain your rating earlier and sit on it? If the latter is the case... why did you wait until the end of the season to get your rating?

Realistically, Blizzard should completely separate PvP and PvE as far as competitions are concerned. Non-rated is non-rated, so balance the classes as best you can, and who cares what gear you have. Also, don't they have those arena servers specifically for competitive PvPers?
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:01 am

woo, an Every Man For Himself complaint!
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby djlar » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:35 am

Can we talk MoP buffs here? or another thread?

We recently released an update to the Mists of Pandaria talent tree. Since the expansion is still in development, these updates represent a snapshot of where we are at any given moment and not a final design where we step back and say “Ladies and gentlemen, we have achieved perfection. Let us not change a thing.” If you’ve been playing the game for a while, you’ve probably realized by now that we never think we’ll hit perfection, and we probably never will.

One design that we haven’t focused on much yet is the plan for various group buffs and debuffs. Some specs have their buffs in place and some do not. Rather than trying to describe each omission, we thought we’d just dump the whole design on you here. As with the rest of the expansion’s systems, we’re not even in beta yet, so there’s plenty of time for things to change.

First, some underlying design goals, so you might understand where we’re coming from. Our main goals for group buffs are:

* Make you feel more powerful when grouped with other players.
* Give you lots of freedom to invite whom you want. This gets to be a problem when there are too many mandatory buffs spread out among too many specs. . .
* …But not offer too many incentives to class stack. If you can achieve every buff with, say, only three players, then there might be a tendency to fill all of the other slots with whoever is best for a particular situation. Some class stacking is inevitable at the cutting-edge level, but to some extent, the players on the cutting edge of raiding enjoy extreme min-maxing. For the rest of us, we try to make sure you can finish all of the encounters without feeling like you need a huge roster of folks waiting in the wings for their one fight.
* We tend to be more generous to DPS specs, since groups -- especially raids -- already have ample reasons to bring tanks and healers.
* We generally don’t want a DPS spec to have to switch to a different spec in the same role just to bring a different buff. An example would be a Combat rogue who has to go Assassination just for a buff. In our experience, players are less likely to switch from a ranged to a melee DPS spec just for a buff, so DPS shaman and DPS druids might bring different buffs.

And finally some notes on the categories below:

* The list only includes what we consider “traditional” buffs, such as Prayer of Fortitude. It doesn’t include utility like being great at snaring, battle rez, knock backs, high DPS while moving, and other mechanics. Those ultimately all factor into a raid or Battleground comp as well.
* The matrix is a little more complex than it appears. A paladin, for example, can only offer one Blessing at a time, while a warrior can only do one shout at a time. You can’t assume one character can cover every buff or debuff listed below at the same time.
* Some of these are active (you must cast them, like Prayer of Fortitude) while others are passive. Note that totems no longer bring passive buffs as a rule.
* You’ll see several categories consolidated or gone. Bleeds no longer made sense, since everyone who cared about bleeds already buffed themselves. Magical resistance we just removed from the game, though there are some abilities that provide magical damage reduction.
* We are still likely to use the design that hunters, especially Beastmaster hunters, can fill in for missing buffs or debuffs by using certain pets.

As always, we’d love to get your feedback on this design.

Buffs

Stats
Effect: +5% Strength, Agility, and Intellect
Example: Blessing of Kings
Brought by: Any druid, any monk, any paladin

Stamina
Effect: +10% Stamina
Example: Power Word: Fortitude
Brought by: Any priest, any warlock, any warrior

Attack Power
Effect: +10% melee and ranged attack power (which will be the same value again)
Example: Battle Shout
Brought by: Any death knight, any hunter, any warrior

Spell Power
Effect: +10% spell power (there will no longer be a 6% version)
Example: Arcane Brilliance
Brought by: Any mage, any shaman, any warlock

Haste
Effect: +10% melee and ranged haste
Example: Improved Icy Talons
Brought by: Frost and Unholy death knights, any rogue, Enhancement shaman

Spell Haste
Effect: +5% spell haste
Example: Moonkin Aura
Brought by: Balance druids, Shadow priests, Elemental shaman

Critical Strike
Effect: +5% ranged, melee, and spell critical chance
Example: Leader of the Pack
Brought by: Guardian and Feral druids, any hunter, any mage

Mastery
Effect: +5 mastery
Example: This is a new category
Brought by: Windwalker monks, any paladin, any shaman

Debuffs

Weakened Armor
Effect: -12% armor
Example: Sunder Armor
Brought by: Any druid, any rogue, any warrior

Physical Vulnerability
Effect: +4% physical damage taken
Example: Brittle Bones
Brought by: Frost and Unholy death knights, Retribution paladins, Arms and Fury warriors

Magic Vulnerability
Effect: +8% spell damage taken
Example: Curse of the Elements
Brought by: Any rogue, any warlock

Weakened Blows
Effect: -10% physical damage done
Example: Previously Demoralizing Shout; now Thunder Clap
Brought by: Blood death knight, Feral and Guardian druid, Brewmaster monk, Protection or Retribution paladin, any warrior (any tank)

Slow Casting
Effect: -30% casting speed
Example: Mind-numbing Poison
Brought by: Any death knight, any rogue, any warlock

Mortal Wounds
Effect: -25% healing received
Example: Mortal Strike
Brought by: Arms or Fury warrior, any rogue, any hunter

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He was unsuccessful in convincing the rest of the class team to change Arms warrior mastery to decreased falling damage taken.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:06 pm

+5% mastery from paladins? would that be Blessing of Might?
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:07 pm

yes, Might is now +5 mastery
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:09 pm

Flex wrote:yes, Might is now +5 mastery


Blessing of Kings is dead, Long live blessing of kings.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Flex » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:11 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Flex wrote:yes, Might is now +5 mastery


Blessing of Kings is dead, Long live blessing of kings.


Kings is +5% Str/Agi/Int I guess, the +5% stats category.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:19 pm

Flex wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
Flex wrote:yes, Might is now +5 mastery


Blessing of Kings is dead, Long live blessing of kings.


Kings is +5% Str/Agi/Int I guess, the +5% stats category.


I know, but it doesn't provide the +5% to HP anymore, so Might seems like the better option.
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