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Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby warden » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:31 am

Kelaan wrote:
warden wrote:back to using my 2.9k resil ret with his Heroic Gurth

This is a poster child for what we're talking about here, IMO. The weapon procs on the Deathwing 2H weapons (and, to a certain extent, 2-piece T13 bonuses) are SO good that it changes a lot of things. The damage output of a rogue using the quest weapons and 2-piece versus one who doesn't is pretty significant. Healers with the healing procs,and physical DPS with Gurthalak were doing very differently than those without.

That's part of why they rebalanced the DPS trinkets (that procced +damage) and the tentacle proc on Gurth: it was SO good that having one was a BIG deal in PvP. Giving up ~3% damage reduction from resilience in order to have a damage proc is pretty compelling in some compositions, and just compounds the issues of "balance".

The instant I get a Gurthalak from LFR, I'll be experimenting with it in arenas. It's likely not the best in all situations, but it certainly seems compelling in others. Compelling enough to experiment. If I had full 403 gear in all my slots, I'd even consider trading some resilience for 2-piece T13. (As tank, that worked really well. As ret, I prefer the resilience ... but holy power is huge in arenas too, so I can see the merits of both.)


The issue with gurth isn't the damage from the proc; the proc damage is only stupidly OP for arms warriors. The part that is the problem is the fact that it slows like a normal mind flay, which is broken in pvp. Remove the slow and there would be no PvE impact, but it would fix a lot of the PvP issues with it. That said, before my little tongue-in-cheek comment above gets wildy blown out of proportion, I've been on both sides of the fence. I was pretty serious about arena on my priest the last season of wrath (full wrathful, inc weapons before rating requirements were removed, etc), getting regularly wrecked by TSG shadowmourne comps and oneshotted by magecleaves (with H DFO, etc) before I could even get to a pillar. Also, I do remember the old days of endlessly farming AV to get the S2 gavel and shield on my pally because nightbane hated me, or farming to get the shoulders for my hunter in S1 because the T4 were so bad. All of that said, I look forward to the changes they're making in Pandaclysm, even if I won't be around to play with them.
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby rodos » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:19 pm

theckhd wrote:The truth is that neither PvP or raiding is a "separate" game from the rest of WoW. PvP even less so, as Battlegrounds/Arenas/Rated BGs didn't even exist when the game was released, they were slowly added and accumulated along the way. The fundamental core of WoW is a quest-based MMORPG. It's what ties everything together, and makes us all feel like we're inhabiting the same world. PvP and raiding are branches we can follow, but they will always be a subset of the entire WoW experience.

That said, I do agree that raid-based rewards should not be supremely powerful in PvP. The game shouldn't be expecting you to take part in raiding just so you can keep up in PvP. While there are lots of people that enjoy doing both, there are also lots of us who only do one or the other. Things like legendaries and raid-faction rewards shouldn't be too strong in PvP. Usable? Sure. On-par with items available via PvP? That's probably fine too as long as the PvP reward is easily accessible. But they should really never be so good as to expect players to have to join a raid team just so they can reach Gladiator in arenas.

It's funny, but the impression I always had of the initial design of WoW, and other MMORPGs before it, was that the purpose of end-game raiding was to get better gear to PvP in. You made your hero powerful by fighting the dragons, then used that power to crush your enemies.

That design obviously changed with the introduction of battlegrounds and arenas, but I think the remnants of it are still there - that there are still people on the design team who think raiders with legendaries should be able to use them to great advantage in PvP because they earned them "the old fashioned way".
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby lythac » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:06 am

rodos wrote:It's funny, but the impression I always had of the initial design of WoW, and other MMORPGs before it, was that the purpose of end-game raiding was to get better gear to PvP in. You made your hero powerful by fighting the dragons, then used that power to crush your enemies.

That design obviously changed with the introduction of battlegrounds and arenas, but I think the remnants of it are still there - that there are still people on the design team who think raiders with legendaries should be able to use them to great advantage in PvP because they earned them "the old fashioned way".


That still happens as late as Cata as you can convert Valor > Conquest but not Conquest > Valor and they were new for Cata :p
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Re: Dev Watercooler – Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:23 am

rodos wrote:It's funny, but the impression I always had of the initial design of WoW, and other MMORPGs before it, was that the purpose of end-game raiding was to get better gear to PvP in. You made your hero powerful by fighting the dragons, then used that power to crush your enemies.


Yeah and in the initial design of WoW, Warriors were the supreme god class capable of doing the most damage and the only viable tank, and Paladins couldn't dps their way out of a wet paper bag unless you abused the Reckoning bug. Just because something was that way in the past doesn't make it right.
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