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"Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Hokahey » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:29 pm

Flex wrote:
Hokahey wrote:I dunno, I think it would be fun, but I also think it require a huge portion of developer time and attention to make it work, which may be more painful than its worth.


And falls into the exact same area that leveling dungeons fall in to, but worse. Also with their constant iteration on class design something designed for level X might not even be doable with level Y design.


Please explain. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't understand what you are getting at.

I honestly believe an extremely long and arduous solo questline for a class specific legendary is a substantially better system than "grind X raid for Y hours" or "Look! The Legendary dropped!" Also, by having it in with the first tier of raiding for an expansion, it can be at least temporarily relevant, even if it does eventually get outstripped by other weapons in later tiers. Better yet, you can even have it be basically the same questline for everyone, but the challenges be tailored to the class of the individual doing them. In example, the quest is to kill a dragon. When faced with a Warrior, the dragon has certain abilities/vulnerabilities, but different ones when faced with a Paladin.

Yes, eventually the reward would be obsolete. That is (almost) impossible to prevent in a game where gear progression is the primary method of character advancement at level cap. It may not even last beyond the tier of raiding it is introduced with, which is still as good as most of the Legendaries that we have seen in game thus far.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:25 am

Why not make any grind involved doable either way... make items drop via raid, but there is an alternative method to solo grind them. Make sure they're obtainable at roughly the same rate, or a limited number per week, so people can't "double dip" to try and complete them faster (of course, if the DMF or something similar is required, that might be moot.) This would allow those that only want to log in to raid, to still be able to complete the legendary, and those that think it's dumb to have to grind raids, to get it done solo.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:12 am

Darielle wrote:
For what purpose AOE threat? That's kind of niche and totally unnecessary if you had a prot pally around. Again, I'm not saying it wasn't a great weapon, it was a freaking legendary it should be awesome, I just don't think it particularly overpowered, and certainly that didn't characterize the other legendary weapons of early wow.


IIRC it was better for everything until you got Sun Eater (which for many tanks took 40+ attempts), King's Defender (at once a week Kara), or Mallet of the Tides (Lurker). The threshold for single target was something like 85 dps or whatever iirc, and questing weapons like http://www.wowhead.com/item=31071 didn't have that. The proc's threat was only nerfed a few months into BC's release.
Everything? I don't think it was better for survivability than even DPS weapons with much more stamina and even some agility, and certainly worse than more tank oriented weapons with defense. Given how easy single target threat was, I don't think I would have taken that trade for such a small amount of threat, unless I didn't have thunderclap available for some reason.

In any event, we are way off the beaten path here, lets end this digression so we stop mucking up the thread.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby benebarba » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:23 am

Hokahey wrote:Yes, eventually the reward would be obsolete. That is (almost) impossible to prevent in a game where gear progression is the primary method of character advancement at level cap. It may not even last beyond the tier of raiding it is introduced with, which is still as good as most of the Legendaries that we have seen in game thus far.


Well, and in a way the legendary (and really anything at all) *must* become outdated/undesirable for continued gameplay (cosmetic/pride reasons don't count) at some point or else it will simply become the defacto weapon for that class/role starting from whenever it is released.

And really, at the end of the day, I think there's a fundamental question that needs an answer (and I'm sure Blizz has theirs, and like everything I bet it has changed over time): What are legendaries actually for?

Should they be uber-weapons, fun flavor or something in the middle? Should they be randomly drops, require help to obtain at level, be a show of individual skill/ability or something else entirely? Who should have them? -- depending on your answers, there will likely be entirely different results.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Lieris » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:35 am

I would rather they stop making legendaries altogether than persist with their current acquisition design.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:50 am

The current system does add a sense of progress to the usual weekly boss grind. Rather than just rolling the same weekly dice for loot, you're also moving steadily along toward getting the next legendary with each kill. It's not a particularly interesting grind but it's something.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Darielle » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:49 pm

And really, at the end of the day, I think there's a fundamental question that needs an answer (and I'm sure Blizz has theirs, and like everything I bet it has changed over time): What are legendaries actually for?

Should they be uber-weapons, fun flavor or something in the middle? Should they be randomly drops, require help to obtain at level, be a show of individual skill/ability or something else entirely? Who should have them? -- depending on your answers, there will likely be entirely different results.


I believe they're (now) meant to be fun, better than average weapons that give your guild something to work towards as a reward of commitment to certain players.

The last few have involved some sort of special perk that's wound up being given back to the guild in some fashion. Dragonwrath had Lil Tarecgosa, Shadowmourne had the items, which while the person could just yoink it, to many who earned it was given back to the guild in varied and fun ways (Gurubashi FFA was my favourite).

Everything? I don't think it was better for survivability than even DPS weapons with much more stamina and even some agility, and certainly worse than more tank oriented weapons with defense. Given how easy single target threat was, I don't think I would have taken that trade for such a small amount of threat, unless I didn't have thunderclap available for some reason.

In any event, we are way off the beaten path here, lets end this digression so we stop mucking up the thread.


Eh, it WAS TBC. People didn't care that much if it all for suvivability off a weapon, and before the proc nerf, it wasn't just a small amount especially since at the time classes could actually threat cap.

In the context of actual tank Legendaries, it would be kinda irrelevant since in the game as it is now a Tank Legendary without a reasonable mitigation contribution would be cried about for years. And I don't think they want to make a weapon with reasonable mitigation contribution in that way.

I still hold to my lore point though about it not making any sense from a quest perspective to have to kill a boss over and over again to complete the legendary item.


Bear in mind from a lore point of view, you're not killing the boss over and over again.
As part of actual play, you kill bosses weekly.
From a Lore PoV, you went in, got 333 Clusters from minions of Deathwing, went over to Ravenholdt, got more Gem Shards from even stronger minions, went back to Ravenholdt, and then finally killed Deathwing to save the world and get a Legendary.

They want these Raid Legendaries to be limited to only raiders. Hell, the more solo stuff that gets put in and the longer it takes, the more annoying it is because you either "waste drops" or "wait in raid 45 mins while I go finish this quest chain to get to the next stage".
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:00 pm

Darielle wrote:Eh, it WAS TBC. People didn't care that much if it all for suvivability off a weapon, and before the proc nerf, it wasn't just a small amount especially since at the time classes could actually threat cap.
Err no, quite the opposite. Pre nerf Kara (and by the time we were post nerf the threat was nerfed too), Gruul, and Mag were definitely hard on tanks and light on threat requirements. On top of that, early TBC single target threat was very easy, you definitely should not have had folks threat capping. It was a small amount of threat based on your own definition if going from a level cap blue to a first tier epic (or less with 5 man hardmode) was enough to cross that threshold, since even that jump alone isn't huge.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Darielle » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:21 pm

Err no, quite the opposite. Pre nerf Kara (and by the time we were post nerf the threat was nerfed too), Gruul, and Mag were definitely hard on tanks and light on threat requirements. On top of that, early TBC single target threat was very easy, you definitely should not have had folks threat capping. It was a small amount of threat based on your own definition if going from a level cap blue to a first tier epic (or less with 5 man hardmode) was enough to cross that threshold, since even that jump alone isn't huge.


*shrug* Most tanks I know who went into Kara had the level cap blue (or the sword from Durn, which was worse) and that was it.

I also feel like you're misunderstanding what I'm talking about. Thunderfury pre-nerf was better for threat than the Gromtor's and so on. At the time, you had classes like Shadow Priests who generated ridiculous amounts of additional threat (and whose scaling mechanics made them demons in early T4, T5 content) and had no drop - they were capped.
Using a not-yet-nerfed Thunderfury actually let them Mind Blast on cd. The difference between Gromtor's and King's D was huge - and that wasn't just because of the straight weapon damage. King's D had the advantage of having Hit. It also coincidentally crossed the threshold in straight weapon damage where a Thunderfury with early 40's weapon dps's proc wasn't absurd enough to outdamage a weapon with twice the weapon dps.

I don't even remember what the exact stats on Gromtor's were now because it's hard to tell with how Defense changed around.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:23 pm

Darielle wrote:
Err no, quite the opposite. Pre nerf Kara (and by the time we were post nerf the threat was nerfed too), Gruul, and Mag were definitely hard on tanks and light on threat requirements. On top of that, early TBC single target threat was very easy, you definitely should not have had folks threat capping. It was a small amount of threat based on your own definition if going from a level cap blue to a first tier epic (or less with 5 man hardmode) was enough to cross that threshold, since even that jump alone isn't huge.


*shrug* Most tanks I know who went into Kara had the level cap blue (or the sword from Durn, which was worse) and that was it.

I also feel like you're misunderstanding what I'm talking about. Thunderfury pre-nerf was better for threat than the Gromtor's and so on. At the time, you had classes like Shadow Priests who generated ridiculous amounts of additional threat (and whose scaling mechanics made them demons in early T4, T5 content) and had no drop - they were capped.
Using a not-yet-nerfed Thunderfury actually let them Mind Blast on cd. The difference between Gromtor's and King's D was huge - and that wasn't just because of the straight weapon damage. King's D had the advantage of having Hit. It also coincidentally crossed the threshold in straight weapon damage where a Thunderfury with early 40's weapon dps's proc wasn't absurd enough to outdamage a weapon with twice the weapon dps.

I don't even remember what the exact stats on Gromtor's were now because it's hard to tell with how Defense changed around.

I understand fine, I just believe you are incorrect. Threat early on was pretty easy, even with shadow priests. Again, if the jump from Gromtor's (and there were other easy options that were better iirc even craftables) to a Suneater crossed that threshold, then that's not really a huge amount.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Darielle » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:38 pm

Threat early on was pretty easy, even with shadow priests.


As a person who mained a Shadow Priest at the time, I respectfully disagree. Even without increased threat on Mind Blast, threat was through the roof.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:51 pm

And as a person that tanked, I'd counter that early TBC threat was over the top for tanks. TPS was often more than twice what the nearest DPSers were approaching in a single target fight. Shadow priests sucked when adds joined in (Tidewalker), but for a single target you wouldn't have even come close to me.

Except for knockbacks, single target threat really didn't get brutal until Sunwell...usually with locks. We can go round and round with this, it's way off track of the thread, so I'm done.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Darielle » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:55 pm

Then you apparently had a completely different experience to the entire Shadow Priest community. All the way up to Illidan, a Priest could ride tank threat like a wave for the first few minutes, to the point that some chose to turn off VE or spec out of Imp VE even on fights that didn't have Tidewalker-like-adds just to get more threat room to dps fully (which involved SW:D). Fights like RoS - dear lord, the threat from healing everyone damaging themselves.

Those threads still exist on Shadowpriest.com.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:46 pm

Gee, if only there was a tanking forum where you could search by post time in ascending order, that started at the beginning of TBC, and had all kinds of threads talking about how threat was really easy for me to reference... :roll:

Seriously though, if you want to continue this discussion, start a new thread and quit further derailing this one.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Lieris » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:24 pm

I can vouch at least for ret paladins being threat monsters. You had to hold back on every fight all the way through T6 until a bunch of forum spam made Blizzard wake up and realise that a 30% threat reduction had to be built into an existing talent. I re-did all of T5 as ret with a new guild when my old guild tried cheating on Vashj and I could without fail pull aggro if I wanted to on most fights. Stormherald was a beast back then.

Cromfel did some good videos back in the day annotated to show exactly when he needed to hold back but I don't think they're still up anywhere.

But yeah, there were a few specs that were outliers and this isn't really relevant to the topic.
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