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"Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Kelaan » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:09 pm

Hokahey wrote:Well, what about bringing back the old class specific questlines, but developing them along the same lines as the current legendary quest? Rich lore and very tightly tuned class-specific questlines that result in a "Legendary" item.

I'd almost rather have a non-legendary item, that was just for transmogging purposes (or, better yet, that scaled to Max Level like heirlooms do so you can earn good Starting Gear via skill).

Procs are cool, models are cool, but the quest line is the thing. I enjoyed my hunter epic quest, and would do that sort of thing again on any character I have. It was both hard and rewarding.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:25 pm

I am really hoping that the really strong proc based effects on the DW weaopns will encourage them to allow all classes (including tanks and the SoulDrinker proc) to be candidates for Legendary weapons.

I also would hope that the Legendaries would be usefull like that staff, rather than the Healer Hammer from Ulduar that seemed to be rarely used in Icecrown. If it means the Legendary is further upgradable in later tiers, at least it wouldn't be so quickly obsolete.

I do like that Rogues have to work a bit for their daggers (and that they seem to enjoy 'earning' them) rather than just collect stuff for 3-6 months, and I do hope they use similar legendary acquisition models going forward.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Ardrhyst » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:51 pm

Archeth wrote:I'd also like to comment on Ardrhyst's point that "DPS doing more DPS and healers doing some more healing is one thing that gets muddled in the mix of being just one part of a team" - the current legendary design is still unbalanced at a certain level (and that's not just the top-100 guilds) because what gets muddled in a normal guild gets seriously out of whack if you make an all-legendary raid team and mostly exclude (or don't actively recruit) people without legendaries. They're supposed to be a guild effort but just promote what people did with raiding in TBC - getting their "rare" shinies, then bailing for greener pastures. Sure having a "survivability" legendary would have an effect sooner, but DPS/healer legendaries are still a balancing issue and as a whole a poor excuse to deny tanks a legendary or otherwise powerful class item.


I agree with your point on how much it matters when all DPS or all healers are sporting legendaries, but that's exactly why a tanking legendary is so unbalancing. Your point is that when 100% of a role group is legendary, they are significantly more powerful than a role group that is 0% legendary. The tanking role is, in many cases, binary. It's 0% legendary or 100% legendary. Sure, in evenly spaced two tank fights it could be 50% legendary, but let's ignore that for now. Suddenly your example of significant output change occurs in EVERY case of legendary acquisition, without any of that nefarious end-user meddling. How do you expect Blizzard to handle or balance that?

I don't necessarily like the fact that it's this way, but it IS this way. Any effect that is good enough is a serious threat to balance, and any effect that isn't a threat to balance is just silly.

Mannstein wrote:Option A) Everytime you dodge, Raid does X%more heal or damage for X seconds

See "serious threat to balance" above.

Zobel wrote: They could still make a tanking weapon with extra dps -- basically add normal amounts of tanking stats to a normal DPS weapon (e.g. add parry/dodge to the typical amounts of str/crit for the tier), so only tanks would want it and it wouldn't be overpowered for DPS, but it'd still provide some benefit to the raid in addition to its e-peen value.

Mannstein wrote:Option B) Avenger - On use, increase damage done by you in 25%, increase size (personaly a Dark/Bright shinning would be a plus)

For both, see "silly" above, and possibly a side of "serious threat to balance" because the raw DPS (due to legendary ilevel) and damage increasing proc stands a reasonable chance of making these examples very attractive to a DPS, regardless of the tank stats that may be worthless to them.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Hawkslayer » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:32 pm

halabar wrote:
Hawkslayer wrote:I still hold to my lore point though about it not making any sense from a quest perspective to have to kill a boss over and over again to complete the legendary item.


Agreed.

Cut the grind by 75%, add some more solo work that's calendar based, and you're done.

As I said, legendaries shouldn't just be about raid attendance, but we don't want people getting them in the first 3 days of a patch release.

Perhaps add a quest that requires DMF twice. The difficulty of the rogue solo quests is probably about right.



That model sounds pretty close to ideal to me.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby benebarba » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:54 pm

halabar wrote:Cut the grind by 75%, add some more solo work that's calendar based, and you're done.

As I said, legendaries shouldn't just be about raid attendance, but we don't want people getting them in the first 3 days of a patch release.

Perhaps add a quest that requires DMF twice. The difficulty of the rogue solo quests is probably about right.


I can get behind an idea like that. Because you're right, much like I don't particularly like the need to be in a raid to start the quests, it doesn't really make any more sense to require you to continue to grind that same raid ad nauseum if you want to see the end of the quest. In both cases, it's not so much about skill or even dedication in the long run, but about if you can convince the appropriate amount of people to help out (though certainly an effective tactic to limiting access).
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Darielle » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:36 pm

That's really how I saw that fight. Moving out of things and interrupting an ability is not a challenging concept, however having to juggle combo points into different abilities outside of a normal rotation, while trying to stun lock and blind recup the boss? Got a little to much pvp for me.


That's not PvP - That's just soloing something hard using the skills you still use in PvE - stuns have been coming into play a lot this expansion in particular.

PvP interference comes into play when you're doing this and some random other faction Hunter comes by and twoshots you when you're at 20% for a free Honor Kill. That's just not fun for anyone.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Holyblaze » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:03 pm

halabar wrote:Well, given their statements, we'll probably get in Panda something similar to Cata. One multi-class legendary, and one restricted one.

Here's hoping that it's a hunter weapon for the restricted one... :D

For the multi-class, hopefully it will be tanking related...

But to your point, I think Blizz can put on the blinders if they want to. They are likely looking to specific audiences regarding feedback, and measuring success there. Much as will LFR, they measured succcess based on the casual audience feedback, not based on the hard-core raider drama.



My ass HOOKER! Hunters got some TBC love with the bow.

Now I say that it is the time of the Paladin! GO GO Blazing Sword: 30,000 man in tank spec only. GO GO?

Really though..time for a Tank Weapon or Shield! No crying from the DK's as they got the 2nd from WRATH! Tanks stats? meh.... Droods? Bleh...

GO GO Paladin/Warrior Tank weapon! 8)

That is all! K thx.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby benebarba » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:31 pm

Darielle wrote:
That's really how I saw that fight. Moving out of things and interrupting an ability is not a challenging concept, however having to juggle combo points into different abilities outside of a normal rotation, while trying to stun lock and blind recup the boss? Got a little to much pvp for me.


That's not PvP - That's just soloing something hard using the skills you still use in PvE - stuns have been coming into play a lot this expansion in particular.

PvP interference comes into play when you're doing this and some random other faction Hunter comes by and twoshots you when you're at 20% for a free Honor Kill. That's just not fun for anyone.


Yeah, I totally agree here (and I do think that Theck was talking walk-by gankings) - back before the multiperson quests in wrath and TBC got changed so the mobs and quests were nerfed, I used those very skills to solo some of those while leveling, and later used it when I got into the cata zones and stuff was hitting pretty hard. It's kind of like how a blue a while back pointed out that stuns aren't just for PVP, no matter what people seem to want to think. Yeah, bosses are immune... but most of the trash and world mobs aren't.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:58 pm

Ardrhyst wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:The second weapon was Thunderfury which was a good weapon, I suppose maybe a bit strong, but nothing absurd. It was useful for both warrior tanks and rogues/warriors for dual wield DPS.


Just wanted to pull this out, because I think it's a little bit of an understatement to call Thunderfury a "bit strong." Thunderfury reduced the melee damage output of everything in the game by 10%. It was ridiculously powerful. In an age where tank death was a significant threat and healer mana was at a premium, there was an enormous gap between a raid that had a Thunderfury and one that didn't.

Similar reasons have been brought up before as to why there can never be a tank legendary ever again. DPS doing more DPS and healers doing some more healing is one thing that gets muddled in the mix of being just one part of a team, but tanks taking noticeably less damage is a big deal. Boss damage is either designed with it in mind or it isn't, which either way leaves one half of that group in an awkward situation.
If I remember right, there should not have been a gap, you just needed to have a DPS warrior use thunderclap. Yes, TF's proc was great for AOE, but TF wasn't an unbalancing weapon. The single target threat may have mattered a bit for horde, but not nearly as much as say...blessing of salvation.

There is absolutely no reason that Blizzard couldn't properly balance a tanking legendary.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Ardrhyst » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:48 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Ardrhyst wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:The second weapon was Thunderfury which was a good weapon, I suppose maybe a bit strong, but nothing absurd. It was useful for both warrior tanks and rogues/warriors for dual wield DPS.


Just wanted to pull this out, because I think it's a little bit of an understatement to call Thunderfury a "bit strong." Thunderfury reduced the melee damage output of everything in the game by 10%. It was ridiculously powerful. In an age where tank death was a significant threat and healer mana was at a premium, there was an enormous gap between a raid that had a Thunderfury and one that didn't.

Similar reasons have been brought up before as to why there can never be a tank legendary ever again. DPS doing more DPS and healers doing some more healing is one thing that gets muddled in the mix of being just one part of a team, but tanks taking noticeably less damage is a big deal. Boss damage is either designed with it in mind or it isn't, which either way leaves one half of that group in an awkward situation.
If I remember right, there should not have been a gap, you just needed to have a DPS warrior use thunderclap. Yes, TF's proc was great for AOE, but TF wasn't an unbalancing weapon. The single target threat may have mattered a bit for horde, but not nearly as much as say...blessing of salvation.

There is absolutely no reason that Blizzard couldn't properly balance a tanking legendary.


Thunderclap's attack speed reduction stacked with Thunderfury's attack speed reduction. They were only unified in a later patch (far after Classic was finished) that was specifically designed to neuter Thunderfury from continuing to be a significant debuff after the weapon was supposed to be outclassed.

EDIT: Checking back on this, I may be wrong. Looking around more.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:03 pm

Ardrhyst wrote:Thunderclap's attack speed reduction stacked with Thunderfury's attack speed reduction. They were only unified in a later patch (far after Classic was finished) that was specifically designed to neuter Thunderfury from continuing to be a significant debuff after the weapon was supposed to be outclassed.

EDIT: Checking back on this, I may be wrong. Looking around more.

Nope, that was changed in 1.9 back when TAQ was released: http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.9.0 so basically when the next tier was released.

You may be thinking of TBC when warriors could use TC in defensive stance, at which point I think they also nerfed the AOE threat of TF.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Darielle » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:06 pm

You may be thinking of TBC when warriors could use TC in defensive stance, at which point I think they also nerfed the AOE threat of TF.


It still managed to last into when people were able to obtain King's D or the mace off Lurker, which is pretty significant of a legendary.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:19 pm

For what purpose AOE threat? That's kind of niche and totally unnecessary if you had a prot pally around. Again, I'm not saying it wasn't a great weapon, it was a freaking legendary it should be awesome, I just don't think it particularly overpowered, and certainly that didn't characterize the other legendary weapons of early wow.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Ardrhyst » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:32 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Ardrhyst wrote:Thunderclap's attack speed reduction stacked with Thunderfury's attack speed reduction. They were only unified in a later patch (far after Classic was finished) that was specifically designed to neuter Thunderfury from continuing to be a significant debuff after the weapon was supposed to be outclassed.

EDIT: Checking back on this, I may be wrong. Looking around more.

Nope, that was changed in 1.9 back when TAQ was released: http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.9.0 so basically when the next tier was released.

You may be thinking of TBC when warriors could use TC in defensive stance, at which point I think they also nerfed the AOE threat of TF.


It looks like the patch where I thought they unified them... they separated them again? I need to test this crap out. Actually looking around provides a ton of conflicting information.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Darielle » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:06 pm

For what purpose AOE threat? That's kind of niche and totally unnecessary if you had a prot pally around. Again, I'm not saying it wasn't a great weapon, it was a freaking legendary it should be awesome, I just don't think it particularly overpowered, and certainly that didn't characterize the other legendary weapons of early wow.


IIRC it was better for everything until you got Sun Eater (which for many tanks took 40+ attempts), King's Defender (at once a week Kara), or Mallet of the Tides (Lurker). The threshold for single target was something like 85 dps or whatever iirc, and questing weapons like http://www.wowhead.com/item=31071 didn't have that. The proc's threat was only nerfed a few months into BC's release.
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