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"Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Flex » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:11 pm

They said don't expect lots of them in the future due to the development time required.

Also by limiting it to the raiding population you can set a minimum class competency and ability level.

If you made it a solo quest you end up in the area where they said the Thrall chain in 4.2 ultimately ended up.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby benebarba » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:34 pm

Flex wrote:They said don't expect lots of them in the future due to the development time required.

Also by limiting it to the raiding population you can set a minimum class competency and ability level.

If you made it a solo quest you end up in the area where they said the Thrall chain in 4.2 ultimately ended up.


That's the thing, I don't quite understand why there needs to be this separation. Why must everything that starts in the open world be a 'cakewalk' anyone can do without much effort?

I'd argue if anything the raid aspect doesn't set a competency, it simply limits it to people who could also get into a raid. Wouldn't be the first time an achievement got sold...

(I can understand the limited number due to development time, but it doesn't stop me from dreaming :P)
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Flex » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:54 pm

You aren't arguing "open world" you are arguing a class quest for the solo play style. The solo aspect alone brings in a host of issues that need to be accounted for.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby benebarba » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:32 pm

Flex wrote:You aren't arguing "open world" you are arguing a class quest for the solo play style. The solo aspect alone brings in a host of issues that need to be accounted for.


And doesn't every single other aspect of the game?
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Kelaan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:57 pm

Flex wrote:You aren't arguing "open world" you are arguing a class quest for the solo play style. The solo aspect alone brings in a host of issues that need to be accounted for.

Yes, but if the solo quests are specifically "hard mode"-ish challenges for specific classes, you can easily tune it for that class.

Paladins might be the most gimped DPS ever, or healer, or have fewer cooldowns, and still make a class that challenges a paladin. Heck, I'd love there to be one for monks at some level ("final exam" type thing, except optional), too. Either way, since there's only one class you can challenge them on all their aspects (tanking, healing, dps, perhaps), or push them to use all the abilities (taunts, HoSac, healing, shielding, intervene, interrupts, CC, etc) at good times.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby benebarba » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:15 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Flex wrote:You aren't arguing "open world" you are arguing a class quest for the solo play style. The solo aspect alone brings in a host of issues that need to be accounted for.

Yes, but if the solo quests are specifically "hard mode"-ish challenges for specific classes, you can easily tune it for that class.

Paladins might be the most gimped DPS ever, or healer, or have fewer cooldowns, and still make a class that challenges a paladin. Heck, I'd love there to be one for monks at some level ("final exam" type thing, except optional), too. Either way, since there's only one class you can challenge them on all their aspects (tanking, healing, dps, perhaps), or push them to use all the abilities (taunts, HoSac, healing, shielding, intervene, interrupts, CC, etc) at good times.


This is pretty much what I was getting at. My thought was basically a series of challenges that would have flavor and actually require you to use tools the devs gave you for the reasons they gave them to you. To do stuff you probably don't do in any one role (in the paladin case, say) - to make a quest that makes you feel like you're a better paladin at the end.

Would it be hard to design? Yes, so it will probably never happen. But that was more what I had in my head than some sort of grand solo playstyle system.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Kelaan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:15 pm

I'd even be okay with a quest chain that required you to actually master all your available roles -- with normalized or instance-bound gear to ensure that you can get healing/tanking/dps gear that your toon normally doesn't have.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:22 pm

I know I'm a broken record on this, but I think the implementation of legendary weapons as a whole has been and still seems to be one of the worst aspects of WoW. Most of the problem is the exclusivity but then there have been other annoyances like the requirement to kill the last boss of an expansion to get one.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Archeth » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:50 pm

I guess it's too late to admit and change a design that obviously doesn't work, but they should really be class-specific questlines/items instead of these unbalanced items for whatever class fits their current lore the most (or whatever excuse they come up with).
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby benebarba » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:53 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I know I'm a broken record on this, but I think the implementation of legendary weapons as a whole has been and still seems to be one of the worst aspects of WoW. Most of the problem is the exclusivity but then there have been other annoyances like the requirement to kill the last boss of an expansion to get one.


I'm actually somewhat surprised you didn't include the balance issue. In some ways, from my limited knowledge, it seems like once upon a time legendaries were super-rare uber-weapons that you just kinda got if you were lucky (and were in the right places doing the right things). They seem to have gotten more story involved with them (good thing), but in a way the last two seemed to almost be 'required' for the classes that can use them.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Archeth » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:10 pm

benebarba wrote:They seem to have gotten more story involved with them (good thing),[...]

At the same time also a bad thing - the more involved these quests become, the more this screws over the people who are totally up for a lore-rich, challenging questline but don't fulfil the requirements (class/spec, active normal mode+ raid team, position "in line" to get it) for no good reason.

They're just mixing up two different concepts that don't mesh well - elaborate class/role specific quests and lore, and rare (right...) yet incredibly powerful weapons for high-end raiders. Considering the balance issues and drama the latter brings, I'm not sure it's justifiable pursuing that road, let alone mix it with the former aspect.

Oh also,
Shoju wrote:Don't get me wrong, even if they wont admit it, I think it's fantastic that they did legendaries that were geared towards the 2 least played classes this expac. (rogue and warlock).

Except "rogue specific" and "every caster can use it, especially OP mages" isn't really comparable for making the least popular classes a bit more popular.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:07 pm

benebarba wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I know I'm a broken record on this, but I think the implementation of legendary weapons as a whole has been and still seems to be one of the worst aspects of WoW. Most of the problem is the exclusivity but then there have been other annoyances like the requirement to kill the last boss of an expansion to get one.


I'm actually somewhat surprised you didn't include the balance issue. In some ways, from my limited knowledge, it seems like once upon a time legendaries were super-rare uber-weapons that you just kinda got if you were lucky (and were in the right places doing the right things). They seem to have gotten more story involved with them (good thing), but in a way the last two seemed to almost be 'required' for the classes that can use them.

There weren't really balance issues back in the day. Hand of Ragnaros (legendary number 1) for instance was generally not used by any class that would use it in a raid, because really only warriors could wield a 2 hander and put out raid quality DPS. However warriors were better off to use either an axe (+5% crit talent) or sword (extra attack proc talent) instead of a mace (stun proc talent that of course didn't work on raid mobs). So you generally had a bunch of pallys and shaman running around hoping for big windfury proc crits or seal of command proc crits in PVP back when those could hit for really big numbers once in a blue moon, then they'd promptly put it in their bags and heal during raids.

The second weapon was Thunderfury which was a good weapon, I suppose maybe a bit strong, but nothing absurd. It was useful for both warrior tanks and rogues/warriors for dual wield DPS.

The last vanilla legendary was a caster staff (Aitesh) and I don't think it was OP but it didn't matter because almost no one got once since you had to almost have Naxx on farm to collect all the pieces (old school naxx was cleared by very very few guilds) and kill the last boss, at which point it was kind of worthless. One if its special abilities was to open a summoning portal to Karazhan (the first raid instance in the next expansion) but even that was pretty useless because they added the summoning stones.

Yes the first 2 legendary weapons were random drops that could be very annoying. Thunderfury had a reasonable little questline to get it crafted at least. The others I don't remember having much back story.

In TBC there were the rogue glaives that dropped from Illidan, they were random too and also could be annoying. I don't think there was much a back story to them, but they were quality weapons. I think at that time only rogues could equip them, many thought that was to throw rogues a bone since thunderfury was used by so many warriors, despite being quite good for rogues too, but as far as I know that was just speculation.

Then at the end of TBC they put a hunter legendary on the last boss (Thoridal), again, fairly useless once you are clearing every boss in the game, and also again not too many guilds were able to clear it and then get the fairly rare random drop.

In my opinion they really don't seem to have improved on the legendary model much and I always felt it was such a terrible model. At this point I find the class/role exclusivity a bit silly to boot.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Hokahey » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:14 am

Well, what about bringing back the old class specific questlines, but developing them along the same lines as the current legendary quest? Rich lore and very tightly tuned class-specific questlines that result in a "Legendary" item. Maybe even have certain portions of the quest instanced/phased with the requirement that it bve completed solo to prevent players from grouping to easily overcome difficult portions. Sort of the "solo endgame", at least at the start of the expansion (I think Legendaries would work better if introduced in the first raiding tier than the last.)

I dunno, I think it would be fun, but I also think it require a huge portion of developer time and attention to make it work, which may be more painful than its worth.
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Passionario » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:32 am

Fenrìr wrote:I mean, "overwhelming positive"? With who?


With the same people who told them this, I guess:

"Overwhelmingly, players have told us that they want more quests where you have to flap a giant bird around a cave while targeting creatures in a 3D space."
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Re: "Overwhelmingly Positive" Feedback

Postby Darielle » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:41 am

The way they did the questlines and minibosses was great. The storylines weren't too bad either if you weren't in a rush to get it done between bosses so you just escaped out of cinematics and all that. That's the feedback they're referring to - not "We received overwhelming feedback that everyone loves Rogue Legendary".
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