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Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Cogglamp » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:30 am

Klaudandus wrote:And that's the reason why I hate Tigole and Furor (Jeff Kaplan and Alex Afrasiabi). They're the ones responsible for Vanilla, the reason why for half of its lifetime the only true tanks were warriors, why paladins were stuck as buff machines and whatnot, all because of a grudge they held against paladins from their days of Everquest.

The fact that he's the lead designer in Titan scares me A LOT.


You mean the same kind of grudge that you're holding against someone for what they did over 7 years ago even though tanks are pretty well balanced now? Let it go already.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:59 am

Cogglamp wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:And that's the reason why I hate Tigole and Furor (Jeff Kaplan and Alex Afrasiabi). They're the ones responsible for Vanilla, the reason why for half of its lifetime the only true tanks were warriors, why paladins were stuck as buff machines and whatnot, all because of a grudge they held against paladins from their days of Everquest.

The fact that he's the lead designer in Titan scares me A LOT.


You mean the same kind of grudge that you're holding against someone for what they did over 7 years ago even though tanks are pretty well balanced now? Let it go already.


Greg Street was put into place as lead systems developer during BC's development. That's when Warriors started seeing signs that they might not be the omnipotent super-class anymore, and balance might someday occur. We have no reason to believe that Kalgan and Tigole's (Furor was on world design rather than system design so I don't think he was involved as much directly) influence was anything but counter productive to our class, and every reason to believe that it was Ghostcrawler who got us to where we are now. So I see no reason not to continue to blame them and hate on them for what they did to us. The fact that we're balanced now is in spite of their efforts, not due to them.

Ghostcrawler even lampshades this in this very blog post (bolded emphasis is mine):
This was the Burning Crusade model, where classes like shaman and Shadow priests were brought to raids just to make the pure classes (and warriors, who were always treated as pure classes back then for some reason) do better DPS.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:39 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Cogglamp wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:And that's the reason why I hate Tigole and Furor (Jeff Kaplan and Alex Afrasiabi). They're the ones responsible for Vanilla, the reason why for half of its lifetime the only true tanks were warriors, why paladins were stuck as buff machines and whatnot, all because of a grudge they held against paladins from their days of Everquest.

The fact that he's the lead designer in Titan scares me A LOT.


You mean the same kind of grudge that you're holding against someone for what they did over 7 years ago even though tanks are pretty well balanced now? Let it go already.


Greg Street was put into place as lead systems developer during BC's development. That's when Warriors started seeing signs that they might not be the omnipotent super-class anymore, and balance might someday occur. We have no reason to believe that Kalgan and Tigole's (Furor was on world design rather than system design so I don't think he was involved as much directly) influence was anything but counter productive to our class, and every reason to believe that it was Ghostcrawler who got us to where we are now. So I see no reason not to continue to blame them and hate on them for what they did to us. The fact that we're balanced now is in spite of their efforts, not due to them.

Ghostcrawler even lampshades this in this very blog post (bolded emphasis is mine):
This was the Burning Crusade model, where classes like shaman and Shadow priests were brought to raids just to make the pure classes (and warriors, who were always treated as pure classes back then for some reason) do better DPS.


So much this.

Despite the fact I don't always agree with GC and the direction the game takes, we owe it to him that all 4 tanks are pretty viable for all content nowadays; yeah some are better than others in some degrees, but back in the days of Kaplan, if you were to say that a Paladin or a Druid was gonna be your MT for one of the 40 man raids, you would be laughed out of town.

And yeah, it's because of these changes that I remain playing this game to begin with; I really don't see how I could have played the game to this point if Kaplan's class design philosophy was still in place.

Also, the reason why Furor and Tigole go hand in hand was because Furor actually crashed EQ servers in protest against paladins, and Tigole was very public on his support of his actions -- and both were known for their posts bashing paladins in forums during those days as well.

And well, yeah, I hold a grudge, but I aint the one getting paid to design a game, he is and, for years, he let that grudge be a design philosophy.

So yeah, I kind of am warranted to bear a grudge against him, just like everyone else here on these forums.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby halabar » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:22 am

Cogglamp wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:And that's the reason why I hate Tigole and Furor (Jeff Kaplan and Alex Afrasiabi). They're the ones responsible for Vanilla, the reason why for half of its lifetime the only true tanks were warriors, why paladins were stuck as buff machines and whatnot, all because of a grudge they held against paladins from their days of Everquest.

The fact that he's the lead designer in Titan scares me A LOT.


You mean the same kind of grudge that you're holding against someone for what they did over 7 years ago even though tanks are pretty well balanced now? Let it go already.



And I'm not sure how Titan would be effected anyway, I doubt it will be a fantasy sword-and-board genre...
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Cogglamp » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:20 am

Blame them? Hate them? You think that's the appropriate use of your time and energy especially over the past 4-7 years?

Instead of celebrating Mr. Street's design (and thus keeping you in the game), you're more prone to bash those that have wronged you in some way in a distant past.

So yeah, like I said, let it go. Holding a grudge (and then trying to logically justify that you are warranted in bearing that grudge) is a waste.

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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:51 am

It's not like I carry voodoo dolls of them with me wherever I go, but I will bring them up whenever people talk about the how great the haydays of Vanilla were, which is ridiculous -- or when we discuss how Blizz has changed, for the better, from where it started.

And I do give props to GC for what he did for the Paladins, even if I don't always agree with what he has done for the paladins.

You see more hung up on my bashing of Kaplan/Afrabiasi than me actually bashing them. *confused*
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:44 am

It's not like I carry voodoo dolls of them with me wherever I go


It would be awkward for a grown man to be seen out of his house with dolls, better to leave them at home...

:lol:
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:45 am

Hrobertgar wrote:
It's not like I carry voodoo dolls of them with me wherever I go


It would be awkward for a grown man to be seen out of his house with dolls, better to leave them at home...

:lol:


Well, I could always just use paper dolls and carry them in my wallet.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Flex » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:08 pm

Aanar wrote:I've wondered if there would be room for a spec design that's 50% healer and 50% dps.


Atonement Disc is a perfect example of that and something I think is a great addition to the game, unfortunately it doesn't fare as well in end game content as compared to leveling content, for example healing a bloodworm during low damage moments instead of the tank to build up Divine Aegis is a bit frustrating at times. I mentioned in guild chat that it is the first playstyle that I would consider main changing for if it was made fully viable at all levels.
Last edited by Flex on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Cogglamp » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:09 pm

Klaudandus wrote:

You see more hung up on my bashing of Kaplan/Afrabiasi than me actually bashing them. *confused*


What? No, I'm more hung up on the fact that people can carry a grudge for 4-7 years for no apparent reason. That's wastefully and just not healthy. It's a game, who cares what they did to "us" so long ago. Shit, it's not even "us", it's a bunch of code that makes us look pink in my raid frames.

Plus, as paladin, we're compelled to believe in the Light and redemption. Leave the bitterness and hate to the DKs and Rogues.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:25 pm

Cogglamp wrote:What? No, I'm more hung up on the fact that people can carry a grudge for 4-7 years for no apparent reason. That's wastefully and just not healthy.


Is it the fact that our perceived wrongs are directed at fictional characters that you have a problem with, or are you actually suggesting that we shouldn't be angry about anything that happened more than X years ago, no matter the severity?
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby benebarba » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:35 pm

Cogglamp wrote:What? No, I'm more hung up on the fact that people can carry a grudge for 4-7 years for no apparent reason.


I do not think that means what you think it means. :wink:

edit (for less troll-sounding): While you may disagree with it, Klaudandus did actually give a reason.
Last edited by benebarba on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:37 pm

benebarba wrote:
Cogglamp wrote:What? No, I'm more hung up on the fact that people can carry a grudge for 4-7 years for no apparent reason.


I do not think that means what you think it means. :wink:


This is pretty much what I was getting at. I think the reason is quite apparent, the question is really whether you believe it's something worth being mad over (and it appears you do not).
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Arcand » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:46 pm

Cogglamp wrote:What? No, I'm more hung up on the fact that people can carry a grudge for 4-7 years for no apparent reason. That's wastefully and just not healthy. It's a game, who cares what they did to "us" so long ago. Shit, it's not even "us", it's a bunch of code that makes us look pink in my raid frames.


There is a reason, explained above - and in a typical month I'll expend zero energy acting on my Vanilla-WoW-related displeasure, so you needn't worry too much about wastefulness and my health.

However, at the same time, there's not much wrong with my memory - so my perception that the WoW development group treated us dishonestly and discourteously isn't going anywhere.

Are they better now? Yes. Hugely. But I don't see any reason that we should lie to ourselves about an event just because it's a certain distance into the past. Any adult should be able to hold "X sucked in 2005" and "X is pretty good now" in their heads simultaneously.
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Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Hokahey » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:03 am

I honestly think the simplest solution is to eliminate distinct talent trees from "pure" DPS classes altogether. This way, instead of expending countless man hours designing distinction between talent trees on classes where most people tend to just pick the one that is performing the best, they can instead work at making them overall fun to play, and better balanced. Shift default talent tree based abilities back into the talent trees (i.e. Water Elemental).

Naturally, this may make some unhappy (i.e. those who have significant emotional attachment to specific talent tree), but it ultimately seems like a lot of effort to make "distinctions" in the talent specs that just doesn't bear out to better gameplay, in my opinion.
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