Remove Advertisements

Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Aanar » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:29 am

It's too late at this point in the game (could have maybe been done going into wotlk), but I would have liked to see MM not have a pet and survival be a melee w/ pet spec. As it is now, the hunter specs seem to play too much the same.

Personally, I like option 5 the most, but realize it's not going to happen unless they somehow added a 4th spec to mage/hunter/rogue/lock for the expansion after MoP. All my chars that can tank or heal have beaten LFR (priest, pal, druid, war, dk, sham). My lock and hunter are 85 but I haven't gathered the gear to qaulify for LFR and my mage and rogue are stuck in lowbie land.

One poster on the forum thread made a good point that at least the pure dps usually have one servicable raid spec, even if it's not their favorite whereas when shadow/ret etc are at the bottom, you can easily find yourself benched.

Another point that I've been mulling over is someone said at least in BC with the huge dependancy on group buffs, an enhance shaman for example didn't worry as much about being competitive dps because he always had a slot to buff the melee group. We're seeing the downsides to "bring the player not the class". For the hard content, there's always going to be some class that is better suited to it (movement, burst etc). unless they push the homeginization even more than they have. And I hope they don't because I like looking at the login screen and mulling over which toon's gameplay I'm in the mood for.

Some people have brought up making one of their three specs a utility (or changing to tank/heal). I've wondered if there would be room for a spec design that's 50% healer and 50% dps. It wouldn't work as a healer for 5 mans (until they become trival) but it could be a useful slot for especially 10 man raiding when you're caught between using 2 or 3 healers. I haven't played rift, but I read "dps" clerics kind of work like this by supplying some of aoe healing.

One thing I think they should do is bump up the 10 man raid size to 15 and lower the 25 man to 20. My reasons are:
1. It should make it easier for them to balance
2. It should make buff coverage easier (rather trival in 25 man but still can be a problem in 10s even with the consolidation in caty)
3. It should be easier to manage a roster. If you're doing 15 and have 5 people on the bench for farm boss, bring them in. If you have to min-max, pick the 15 to run it and benching 5 is more pallatable then benching 15.

Even better if it was just on a sliding scale so you could have 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, or 20. And if that was manageble for balancing, expand it on either end to make it more flexible. The biggest issue (other than developer balance) I can see is priests still have a heal that only heals groups, and it's not very effective to use it on less than 4. This might cause more problems thought if hardmodes had people going with 16 for boss a, but boss b was easier with 17, etc.

When I first read up on SWTOR I was excited that all PCs would have access to a tank and/or heal spec, but then later I realized you couldn't respec your advanced class so there actually are 2 of 8 classes that are pure dps. It just irritating to see that instead of taking steps to try to better balance the tank/healer/dps population they did the opposite by reducing group size to 4 are making so many dps specs.

Anyway, enough of my rambling.
Aanar
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:26 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Fivelives » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:09 pm

I don't think, given the tank/healer requirements for fights, that giving all of the pure DPS classes a tank or heal spec would be such a good idea. We've got a pretty good balance already - not to mention the encounter balancing nightmare that it would create if literally everyone could tank or heal (unless they just simply made all of the classes exactly the same, mechanics-wise).

I still say that they should just keep the melee vs ranged DPS split, and give all of the pure DPS classes both a melee and ranged DPS spec option, kinda like druids and shaman already have now.

The argument could also be made that there are already only two roles - hybrid DPS and pure DPS.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby ryan4nayr » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:33 am

Skye1013 wrote:
Shyrtandros wrote:Melee Warlock.... Do want..

Don't they (kind of) already have this with Metamorphosis? Shouldn't be too difficult to expand that into a full spec.

I distinctly remember warlock tanks for certain boss fights in previous expansions. Would be nice to bring back the "spell power tank" concept that paladins previously represented in TBC. Obviously not gonna happen in this game though *cough GW2 cough*.

For a while, shaman seemed to teeter to the same multiple personality that druids have (and will continue to have in MoP)... I mean, c'mon, Shield Mastery? Earth Shock with the threat bonus? Parry coupled with the Dual Wield talent?

No matter the decision, the new talent revamp will raise some eyebrows and open some eyes.
User avatar
ryan4nayr
 
Posts: 227
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:56 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:55 am

Fivelives wrote:I still say that they should just keep the melee vs ranged DPS split, and give all of the pure DPS classes both a melee and ranged DPS spec option, kinda like druids and shaman already have now.

I really cannot see a ranged Rogue or melee Mage working given the established mechanics of the classes. You'd have to not only change one spec but totally rework the baseline so that speccing into that role wasn't practically a class change.
I don't play WoW any more.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6830
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Fivelives » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:39 am

It could be done, and we're not talking about "established mechanics" here. What I'm saying is that there are essentially 4 roles right now:

- Tank
- Healer
- Ranged DPS
- Melee DPS

The main problem with roles as they now stand is that encounters favor either melee dps OR ranged dps. There's not much overlap (although range dps does better on melee-centric fights than melee dps does on range-centric fights). I haven't raided much since Cata hit, but I can think of a few encounters that are extremely unfavorable towards melee dps (and some that are even unfavorable toward ranged dps) and I'm sure that anyone else who raids could think of even more.

Blizz has been trying to tweak encounters so that there is no such thing as an "optimal raid configuration" (hence their statements about players vs classes), but as long as there are still fights that favor ranged over melee or vice versa, it simply can't be done. Making it so that everyone can either tank or heal isn't going to fix this, because each raid only needs 2 tanks, max, and 3 or 6 heals, but making it so that every dps can be effective at melee and ranged seems like a better idea.

The problem is that we're still thinking of things in a 3-role system - tank/heal/dps - when in fact there are actually four roles.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3108
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Brekkie » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:59 am

Dev blogs bug me, because it always seems like the REAL topic is actually "why you should stop being so mean to us Devs on the forums".

I liked things better back when the Devs where these omnipotent beings with a master plan you could only guess at because they never admitted they were actually mere mortals.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Sagara » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:05 am

Im of the other mind - it's better they stay open with us. Call me a naive idealist, bu even if 10% of the population "understands" the problematic through these posts, and even if less than a percent is capable of producing decent feedback and develop the thoughts, those posts where worth it.

And honestly, Vanilla-style "we know it all, suffer in silence, mortals" methodology would have a backlash that would put Real ID to shame.
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3431
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Dantriges » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:16 am

Most people liked GC posting on the forums and blog is a better medium for them to publish stuff.

In the current age with the number of communication tools available, a closed lips policy would be worse PR wise than speaking openly.

Most people never bought into the super secret master plan anyways. The overwhelming majority thinks they are just clueless idiots.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:33 am

Sagara wrote:Im of the other mind - it's better they stay open with us. Call me a naive idealist, bu even if 10% of the population "understands" the problematic through these posts, and even if less than a percent is capable of producing decent feedback and develop the thoughts, those posts where worth it.

And honestly, Vanilla-style "we know it all, suffer in silence, mortals" methodology would have a backlash that would put Real ID to shame.


And that's the reason why I hate Tigole and Furor (Jeff Kaplan and Alex Afrasiabi). They're the ones responsible for Vanilla, the reason why for half of its lifetime the only true tanks were warriors, why paladins were stuck as buff machines and whatnot, all because of a grudge they held against paladins from their days of Everquest.

The fact that he's the lead designer in Titan scares me A LOT.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11095
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Brekkie » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:43 am

I wasn't really being serious with my comment.

I DO think that the tone of the blogs tends to be overly focus on:
"This problem is challenging, therefore you should not be so mad at us because we can't please everyone and here is why"

...which is a subtly but profoundly different tone than:
"This problem is challenging, so we are going to make the choice we feel is most likely to be best for the game, and here is why".
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:17 am

Brekkie wrote:I wasn't really being serious with my comment.

I DO think that the tone of the blogs tends to be overly focus on:
"This problem is challenging, therefore you should not be so mad at us because we can't please everyone and here is why"

...which is a subtly but profoundly different tone than:
"This problem is challenging, so we are going to make the choice we feel is most likely to be best for the game, and here is why".


Yeah, I totally get that vibe too, specially from the ilvl squish one -- which I hope they actually go ahead with.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 11095
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Sagara » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:32 am

For me, the nuance is near-nonexistent - I've screwed things bad often enough not to bother hoping people have some divine omniscience. I can see it, but I don't care about it either way.

Still, it's a good move by Blizz - make players think. If we didn't want to think, Maintankadin wouldn't exist.
When that day comes, seek all the light and wonder of this world, and fight.

Worldie wrote:I used to like it [mean] back on Sylvanas.

Queldan - EU Stormrage (H) - Good night, sweet prince.
User avatar
Sagara
 
Posts: 3431
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:04 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby RedAces » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:52 pm

Do you know the support role in RIFT? I find it really cool, it can be 2 things:

Healsupport is a subpar DD with abysmal DPS (1/3 to 1/4 of a normal DPS) but for every damage he puts out, he'll heal the group for this amount (like a shadow priest on speed!).

Damagesupport is a subpar DD with imba buffs that push other dps to more, like giving +5% to everybody (or more?).

Developing a specc of some of the pure damage classes into a support role can be easy but it has some tricks to it. Like you're making arms the support role and then every arms player that wanted to play the specc as DD will be pissed.
Rift solves this problem by having different permanent buffs like stances (but without changing your bars...):
  • Mien of Aggression boosts your DPS by 25%, but nerfs your healing by 20%.
  • Mien of Honor boosts your healing done by 25%.
  • Mien of Leadership gives you armor, dodge, HP and whatnot but nerfs damage done by 20%.

The Rift Dungeon Browser puts together 1 Tank, 1 Heal, 1 Support (of any sort) and 2 DDs.

What do you think?
Image
User avatar
RedAces
 
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:39 am
Location: Germany

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Darielle » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:02 pm

And that's the reason why I hate Tigole and Furor (Jeff Kaplan and Alex Afrasiabi). They're the ones responsible for Vanilla, the reason why for half of its lifetime the only true tanks were warriors, why paladins were stuck as buff machines and whatnot, all because of a grudge they held against paladins from their days of Everquest


Is this really still held in belief?

On a totally random note - WoW can't really support a role change for classes anyway. We're about to have too many Classes as it is - the only real option to do drastic role changes would be to consolidate some. And that's a different design shift in itself. (They've sort of started that path with 4 specs for Druid)
Darielle
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:41 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: Dev Watercooler - The Role of Role

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:24 pm

Brekkie wrote:Dev blogs bug me, because it always seems like the REAL topic is actually "why you should stop being so mean to us Devs on the forums".

I liked things better back when the Devs where these omnipotent beings with a master plan you could only guess at because they never admitted they were actually mere mortals.

Well, I don't about the blog stuff, but things were utter shit before GC started posting on the forums. Wouldn't it have been nice in vanilla if a Dev came out and said, your class will only be a viable healer at end game, or in TBC if they came out and said, you are designed to be an AOE tank? Well it would have been nice and a cosmic shit storm at the same time, but one they clearly earned. Instead they strung people along for years with vague comments that never took a position, so they didn't have to ever justify one. I can't imagine given the way pallys were treated on the forums the few times blues did post, that there were many who held devs in a particularly high regard, I mean look what happened whenever Kalgan attempted a post.

So much more good came out of GC posting on the forums as far as pallys go, than almost anything else in this game. He restored the faith that the previous devs had squandered long ago.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9666
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest
?php } else { ?