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Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:16 am

There were huge issues in TBC that kept guilds at differing stages of progression.
1) No 10 man path, Kara then over a year later ZA, thus making 25 mans the real raiding.
2) Attunements. Blocking moving to Y if you couldn't kill X.
3) Guild poaching/hopping because of #2. Much easier to poach from a guild who has an attuned playerbase than recruit someone who isn't attuned. Much quicker to get geared/attuned in a T4 guild then jump to a T5 one.

As brought up above, the important distinction for me was that, in the early expansions, you were a hero because you DID HEROIC THINGS. As opposed to being told you are a hero, before really doing any deeds, and then therefore feeling entitled for challenges to fall at your feet.


I remember the Wrath NPC dialog about being a hero being in relation to exploits done during TBC. The entire ending cinematic of Dragon Soul partially plays in to that theme. In recent history the mortal races of Azeroth have done more to turn back the tides of darkness and destruction than any of the immortal/long lived races have.

Distinguishing the Player Characters from the actual Player helps in this.
Getting accolades in WotLK when all I did in TBC was kill trolls and raid a tower is amusing. But so is going into a new place after pushing back the leader of The Burning Legion and being addressed like common cannon fodder.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:28 am

As someone who was handling a bit of our guild's recruitment in TBC, number 3 was such a huge pain in the ass and an obstacle to recruiting quality players of the classes we needed. Thank goodness they removed those requirements.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:42 am

Flex wrote:I remember the Wrath NPC dialog about being a hero being in relation to exploits done during TBC. The entire ending cinematic of Dragon Soul partially plays in to that theme. In recent history the mortal races of Azeroth have done more to turn back the tides of darkness and destruction than any of the immortal/long lived races have.

Distinguishing the Player Characters from the actual Player helps in this.
Getting accolades in WotLK when all I did in TBC was kill trolls and raid a tower is amusing. But so is going into a new place after pushing back the leader of The Burning Legion and being addressed like common cannon fodder.


I personally like the ally-side dude in the leather diaper at the docks of Howling Fjord who says something along the lines of 'So you're the new hotshot in town... Time to step up and prove it'. For my leveling worgen who really just spent a bit of time killing random orcs and beasties in Outland, it kinda fits. But it also kinda fits for those who beat the big baddies of TBC if you think about the fact this guy probably didn't see your character do any of the things he heard about and he's clearly one of those stereotypical military hard-asses who is telling you to that he's got a list of things to get done and he doesn't care if you think you're above any of them.

And wasn't there also the aspect of proving yourself in the Argent Tournament during Wrath as well? I seem to recall a dialogue talking about how it was basically trying to find the best of the best for the final assault on the LK.

Azeroth becomes a funny place when you figure there are probably more 'heroes' (adventurers) than farmers... though I guess what with the wandering monsters and bandits, that's not surprising :P
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Darielle » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:58 pm

Personally I have a hard time believing anything in a MMORPG is heroic, especially on the PVE side. Don't get me wrong, I find it interesting to see what people accomplish in WoW. If you care more about those things there is plenty of tracking information available. If you killed all the bosses in heroic mode before the nerfs, the nerfs don't diminish what you did.


My problem is that to kill all bosses in Heroic mode before the nerfs, there was a 6-week window.

We're not talking "Oh we put in a horrendous roadblock like Heroic Rag, and we don't want guilds to die over it, let's nerf that fight specifically" (Spine adjustment was fine - it let people actually bring classes they were sitting otherwise), or "this tier's over, we want people to be able to go in and enjoy the fights we made here if they weren't able to" (note that T11 Heroics still never got a 15% or equiv nerf anywho). Either of those would be fine. This was 6 weeks, and then bam nerf time.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:47 pm

Darielle wrote:(note that T11 Heroics still never got a 15% or equiv nerf anywho).


A lot were reworked in hot fixes though.

Hotfix (2011-03-16): "The Omnotron Defense System encounter has had its health reduced by 15% on Heroic difficulty, and the damage of Incineration Security Measure has been reduced."

Hotfix (2011-03-16): "Magmaw overall damage and health was a little too high on all difficulties and has been reduced slightly. In addition, on Heroic difficulty, Nefarian will now prefer ranged targets when spawning Blazing Bone Constructs."
Hotfix (2011-01-18): The damage of Chimaeron's Caustic Slime has been reduced for both raid sizes and dungeon difficulties.
Hotfix (2011-01-05): "Chimaeron now resets his melee attack cycle after each Massacre and removes the Double Attack buff."
Nef had 10 player heroic nerds in 4.1
Wyrmbreaker was of course completely reworked.
Patch 4.1.0 (2011-04-26): Blackout can now be dispelled on Heroic difficulty.
Hotfix (2011-03-16): "Valiona and Theralion overall damage and health has been reduced by roughly 10% on Heroic difficulty. In addition, Twilight Zone no longer increases damage taken from Rift Blast."
Cho'gal got add health reductions on 10 man heroic in 4.1
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Darielle » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:47 pm

A lot were reworked in hot fixes though.

Hotfix (2011-03-16): "The Omnotron Defense System encounter has had its health reduced by 15% on Heroic difficulty, and the damage of Incineration Security Measure has been reduced."

Hotfix (2011-03-16): "Magmaw overall damage and health was a little too high on all difficulties and has been reduced slightly. In addition, on Heroic difficulty, Nefarian will now prefer ranged targets when spawning Blazing Bone Constructs."
Hotfix (2011-01-18): The damage of Chimaeron's Caustic Slime has been reduced for both raid sizes and dungeon difficulties.
Hotfix (2011-01-05): "Chimaeron now resets his melee attack cycle after each Massacre and removes the Double Attack buff."
Nef had 10 player heroic nerds in 4.1
Wyrmbreaker was of course completely reworked.
Patch 4.1.0 (2011-04-26): Blackout can now be dispelled on Heroic difficulty.
Hotfix (2011-03-16): "Valiona and Theralion overall damage and health has been reduced by roughly 10% on Heroic difficulty. In addition, Twilight Zone no longer increases damage taken from Rift Blast."
Cho'gal got add health reductions on 10 man heroic in 4.1


Those hotfixes are a completely different story - most raid bosses that have existed were hotfixed too. And the reworks made the fights actually make sense - Magmaw, V&T were also fairly majorly revamped, and 10-man add health on Maloriak, V&T etc., were also adjusted because they had almost the same health as 25-man.

Those are totally fine, and a completely different thought process and idea to "Nerf everything", which was what the Normal mode nerfs were.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:06 am

Darielle wrote:My problem is that to kill all bosses in Heroic mode before the nerfs, there was a 6-week window.

We're not talking "Oh we put in a horrendous roadblock like Heroic Rag, and we don't want guilds to die over it, let's nerf that fight specifically" (Spine adjustment was fine - it let people actually bring classes they were sitting otherwise), or "this tier's over, we want people to be able to go in and enjoy the fights we made here if they weren't able to" (note that T11 Heroics still never got a 15% or equiv nerf anywho). Either of those would be fine. This was 6 weeks, and then bam nerf time.


That's my one complaint about the nerfs as well. It just came too fast for my guild. I'm not at all opposed to having a progressive nerf system, it's an ideal way to slowly open up the content to people that are stonewalled by a boss. But because we raid only two nights a week, we progress much more slowly than a 3- or 4-night guild. Consider that it's basically a full night or two of practice on a boss per week, which is huge when it only takes you one or two nights of practice to kill a new boss (my rough estimate of how we progress).

That said - I recognize that this is a self-imposed limitation of sorts. It doesn't make sense for Blizzard to tune the debuff around 2-night guilds if we're in the minority. And I don't really mind that we're clearing things faster because of the buff, so I don't feel the need to get up in arms over it. But it does mean we get into situations like we did with Blackhorn, where we were consistently getting to P2 at 5% and just needed more practice/pulls (and less stupid RNG on fires), and the next week we one-shot it for a progression kill with the 10% debuff.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Flex » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:09 am

Darielle wrote:Those hotfixes are a completely different story


So a straight up health reduction and damage reduction is a different story?
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:33 am

Flex wrote:
Darielle wrote:Those hotfixes are a completely different story


So a straight up health reduction and damage reduction is a different story?

I'd say there's definitely a difference between targeted hotfixes (which are minor tuning tweaks to individual bosses) and raid-wide nerfs to all bosses. One is saying "this encounter was a little harder than we intended, so we're bringing it down a little to be more in-line with the rest of the instance." The other is saying "we're reducing the difficulty of this entire tier to allow more guilds to see the content."

Very different, both in intent and execution.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby benebarba » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:41 am

theckhd wrote:
Darielle wrote:My problem is that to kill all bosses in Heroic mode before the nerfs, there was a 6-week window.

We're not talking "Oh we put in a horrendous roadblock like Heroic Rag, and we don't want guilds to die over it, let's nerf that fight specifically" (Spine adjustment was fine - it let people actually bring classes they were sitting otherwise), or "this tier's over, we want people to be able to go in and enjoy the fights we made here if they weren't able to" (note that T11 Heroics still never got a 15% or equiv nerf anywho). Either of those would be fine. This was 6 weeks, and then bam nerf time.


That's my one complaint about the nerfs as well. It just came too fast for my guild. I'm not at all opposed to having a progressive nerf system, it's an ideal way to slowly open up the content to people that are stonewalled by a boss. But because we raid only two nights a week, we progress much more slowly than a 3- or 4-night guild. Consider that it's basically a full night or two of practice on a boss per week, which is huge when it only takes you one or two nights of practice to kill a new boss (my rough estimate of how we progress).

That said - I recognize that this is a self-imposed limitation of sorts. It doesn't make sense for Blizzard to tune the debuff around 2-night guilds if we're in the minority. And I don't really mind that we're clearing things faster because of the buff, so I don't feel the need to get up in arms over it. But it does mean we get into situations like we did with Blackhorn, where we were consistently getting to P2 at 5% and just needed more practice/pulls (and less stupid RNG on fires), and the next week we one-shot it for a progression kill with the 10% debuff.



Actually, I wonder if Blizz even thought about the guilds that only do 1-2 nights a week (or any number for that matter), or if they just thought 'Man, we wanted way more people to be through this by now. Get the nerfbat!'. Which makes me wonder: if we don't expect there to be another tier until MOP, and that won't drop for several more months - isn't it kind of silly to be 'encouraging' people to chew through things faster? Were that many people really dropping to to progression-exhaustion?
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:55 am

Only they have the numbers to know that.

Also, to be fair, we progress pretty rapidly for a 2-night guild. Faster than many 3-night guilds, at least. Just not as fast as the really hardcore 3+-nighters. We were 4/8H before the first round of nerfs (again, with Ultraxion about a night away from dying) and 5/8 before the second round (see earlier comment about Warmaster). I expect we'll get pretty close on spine this week or next now that we've got the flow of the fight figured out, and we've only spent one night learning that fight.

My fear is that we'll have an off-night or two (meaning key players missing or people just losing focus), which hurts much more when that's half of your raid week. I'd really like to kill it at 10%, simply because it still feels like a decent challenge. At 15% nerf level, I think it'll fall over with a strong breeze.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby benebarba » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:53 am

theckhd wrote:Only they have the numbers to know that.


Yep. I mean, we can certainly assume they didn't feel progress across attempts was fast enough (I believe GC even said that specifically), but the rest is really only speculation at this point. My questions were really just rhetorical... I'm sure we could find anecdotal examples on either side.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:11 am

Actually, I find it hard to believe that they made the determination and the data just happened to work out to exact one-month intervals. It seems more likely to me that they just scheduled it for one-month intervals and decided they would delay it if it looked like it was too soon. And then they either forgot to delay, or decided that delaying a week or two wasn't all that critical.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby benebarba » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:40 am

theckhd wrote:Actually, I find it hard to believe that they made the determination and the data just happened to work out to exact one-month intervals. It seems more likely to me that they just scheduled it for one-month intervals and decided they would delay it if it looked like it was too soon. And then they either forgot to delay, or decided that delaying a week or two wasn't all that critical.


The cynic in me thinks they probably planned on doing ~1 month progressive nerfs from the outset (once whatever point was passed where it was decided they were needed) and the whole 'They aren't set in stone, we'll shift the dates as needed' thing was merely PR to try and limit the inevitable storm of complaints by making it appear data-driven.

Though I imagine it was more of a 'ok, do it sometime in this X week window and things should be fine' knowing that there'd always be someone who would have been OK given another week.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Darielle » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:20 pm

So a straight up health reduction and damage reduction is a different story?


Yes?
There's a big difference between a specific nerf to sort out issues with a particular encounter, as opposed to a zonewide nerf.

As far as whether they consider 1-2 night guilds, I actually haven't found a single guild that did go 8/8 before 5% that didn't raid for at least 4 days of the week, and it's certainly not like every guild that raids that often killed 8/8, they were just the ones who even had a shot - not that I've looked through every single one, just a few of the ones that barely made it. All the stuff remaining around it being at their total control is straight out complete PR - never mind that it's a cycle of "Oh nerf happened, new kills" followed by a few weeks of falling off, which justifies itself into "more nerfs" because completion rates are falling so a new nerf is needed (clearly). Is there really an illusion that it won't be progressed the entire way?
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