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Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:03 pm

I think you are overstating the outrage. I think it's more of an issue of Blizz looking at the numbers and trying to keep people playing.


It's both.

The nerfs have started coming so fast that patience to actually progress on content is getting lower and lower - I mean, if you think about it, a guild should start entering Dragon Soul and then finish content of their level by the time new content comes out. So for a guild that IS capable of 8/8 Heroic, Heroic Madness is something they should have been expecting to drop in May, and for a guild that isn't capable of Heroic at all, that's when they should have been finishing up Normal Madness. Otherwise they run out of content at their level.

Taking more than 2 raids nights to kill a new Heroic boss is now an unacceptable difficulty level; but raid content is supposed to last months.

I guess another thing to think about is progress within a fight. On multi-stage fights that have progressive difficulty and things like that, you do have a sense of progress within the fight - you learn phase 1, solidify it while learning phase 2, get phase 2 controlled while learning phase 3 etc. For a fight that would take nights, you can say "Well, we spent this night and got p1 down, next night we got p2 down, next night we did p3, then we killed it". For a fight where it's a cycle or random, you're just as likely on the 3rd night to be wiping 45 seconds in - so while you are progressing on the fight, it's entirely possible that people feel worse because you're wiping 45 seconds in after 2 nights on the boss. Heroic Madness is probably the worst of the lot - the actual learning is in the last platforms, but you spend 7-8 minutes just to get there, and possibly wipe because Thrall decided he didn't want to carry your raiders across.
Last edited by Darielle on Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:11 pm

Brekkie wrote:This, I think, is also a very interesting point to look at across the history of the game.

In Vanilla and TBC, you were definitely NOT treated like a hero by the NPCs.


I'm going to have to call you out on this one.

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While you may be right about the widespread use of the word "hero" in NPC dialogue, events such as escorting Reginald Windsor into Stormwind Keep to confront Onyxia (and there's more than one of these, but this is the most poignant example I can think of) certainly made ME feel like a hero, despite your claims that such things didn't happen in Vanilla.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:21 pm

While you may be right about the widespread use of the word "hero" in NPC dialogue, events such as escorting Reginald Windsor into Stormwind Keep to confront Onyxia (and there's more than one of these, but this is the most poignant example I can think of) certainly made ME feel like a hero, despite your claims that such things didn't happen in Vanilla.


I had a different feeling in that quest, where it felt more like Windsor was being treated as the Hero (having been captured and freed and all that), and we basically just got splash effect at best from being in his company *shrug*
Last edited by Darielle on Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:23 pm

Yeah the lack of "hero" in Vanilla was merely a discontinuity in the story telling after hitting the level cap, which in comparison to later expansions more effort was put into. Even then as Sabin points out, certain arcs still took you down that path.

That's not uncommon in games, take SWTOR for example, most NPCs still talk to me the same way as when I was level one, yet I'm a member of the friggin dark council. It's a massive discontinuity in a game that prides itself on its story telling. Wow is certainly set in an environment in which the player is a hero as most RPGs are. Ordinary townsfolk aren't running around being trained to defeat enemies that threaten their existence daily, that's where the heroes come in.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:25 pm

Darielle wrote:
While you may be right about the widespread use of the word "hero" in NPC dialogue, events such as escorting Reginald Windsor into Stormwind Keep to confront Onyxia (and there's more than one of these, but this is the most poignant example I can think of) certainly made ME feel like a hero, despite your claims that such things didn't happen in Vanilla.


I had a different feeling in that quest, where it felt more like Windsor was being treated as the Hero (having been captured and escaped and all that), and we basically just got splash effect at best from being in his company *shrug*


Well he didn't escape by himself. Even if you grant that yes, he is the hero everyone's talking about (because he is, you're right), you're the one that freed him, and he acknowledges your help. He calls you friend. That's more than enough validation for this hero.

Anyway I guess what I'm really trying to get at is that a lot of the content in Vanilla and BC made me feel like a hero regardless of the use of the word "hero" by the NPCs.

Maybe it didn't make you feel heroic? I'm sorry if that's the case. I dunno what you're trying to get out of the experience, really, but I feel the game did its job for me.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:42 pm

Well he didn't escape by himself. Even if you grant that yes, he is the hero everyone's talking about (because he is, you're right), you're the one that freed him, and he acknowledges your help. He calls you friend. That's more than enough validation for this hero.

Anyway I guess what I'm really trying to get at is that a lot of the content in Vanilla and BC made me feel like a hero regardless of the use of the word "hero" by the NPCs.

Maybe it didn't make you feel heroic? I'm sorry if that's the case. I dunno what you're trying to get out of the experience, really, but I feel the game did its job for me.


Both Vanilla and BC did the job, but mostly because of what >I< did as opposed to just people calling us heroes. Like - I felt like I got a "heroic" experience out of doing the Icecrown quests and pushing the Scourge back Gate by Gate, putting down Death Knight leaders and Cultists and then eventually storming the citadel. I felt like I got a Heroic experience out of Heroic Shattered Halls from doing Hellfire quests, killing Fel Reavers to make keys, and so on. I wouldn't have felt like a Hero if I'd hit 70/80, bought some PvP gear and queued up in LFD/LFR.

In the case of that quest, I felt cool for going around BRD and stuff. I didn't drive Onyxia out of Stormwind - Bolvar did. I didn't do anything remarkable combat wise. Where we as "heroes" contributed was in finding the notes and putting hope back into Windsor resulting in him going to Stormwind and freeing Bolvar from Onyxia's grip - which is different to "You are Heroes because you exposed the Defias and then they burned down Sentinel Hill and ran away, but you're still Heroes".
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:11 pm

Darielle wrote:
Well he didn't escape by himself. Even if you grant that yes, he is the hero everyone's talking about (because he is, you're right), you're the one that freed him, and he acknowledges your help. He calls you friend. That's more than enough validation for this hero.

Anyway I guess what I'm really trying to get at is that a lot of the content in Vanilla and BC made me feel like a hero regardless of the use of the word "hero" by the NPCs.

Maybe it didn't make you feel heroic? I'm sorry if that's the case. I dunno what you're trying to get out of the experience, really, but I feel the game did its job for me.


Both Vanilla and BC did the job, but mostly because of what >I< did as opposed to just people calling us heroes. Like - I felt like I got a "heroic" experience out of doing the Icecrown quests and pushing the Scourge back Gate by Gate, putting down Death Knight leaders and Cultists and then eventually storming the citadel. I felt like I got a Heroic experience out of Heroic Shattered Halls from doing Hellfire quests, killing Fel Reavers to make keys, and so on. I wouldn't have felt like a Hero if I'd hit 70/80, bought some PvP gear and queued up in LFD/LFR.

In the case of that quest, I felt cool for going around BRD and stuff. I didn't drive Onyxia out of Stormwind - Bolvar did. I didn't do anything remarkable combat wise. Where we as "heroes" contributed was in finding the notes and putting hope back into Windsor resulting in him going to Stormwind and freeing Bolvar from Onyxia's grip - which is different to "You are Heroes because you exposed the Defias and then they burned down Sentinel Hill and ran away, but you're still Heroes".


Minor quibble: freeing Windsor from captivity by Dark Iron Dwarves, not just giving him hope to expose Onyxia.

And... yeah. I agree. It is about what YOU did rather than the nouns the NPCs use. That IS what made me feel heroic. And I think there was a lot of that feeling questing in Vanilla and BC. I'm not sure why Brekkie says that we needed to look up to people who had done Naxx 40 back in the day as heroes. Personally I had a lot of disdain for those people because they got their awesome gear from being willing to sell out to a huge guild. I eventually sold out too because there wasn't a lot of room for non-40 man progression back in those days, but never did I look at the people raiding cutting edge content and aspire to one day be as awesome as them. My heroicness was validated quite well by the questing content and to be honest, doing content in a group of 40 people where I didn't even KNOW most of them severely cut down on how heroic the accomplishment felt. Especially when, as a Paladin, I basically contributed nothing to the overall effort.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Brekkie » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:32 pm

As brought up above, the important distinction for me was that, in the early expansions, you were a hero because you DID HEROIC THINGS. As opposed to being told you are a hero, before really doing any deeds, and then therefore feeling entitled for challenges to fall at your feet.

I'm not saying you had to idolize naxx raiders or anything like that. The Ony Quest example is a great one too. But even then, they are calling Windsor a hero, not you. And that doesn't mean you can't get satisfaction out of your contribution and accomplishments, and the challenges you overcame.
Which is the whole point. The satisfaction should come from the challenges you overcome. Trivializing the challenges in order to provide a drip IV of satisfaction is putting the cart before the horse. And more crucially, claiming that people will get stuck forever and need content nerfed is a self-fulfilling prophesy.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Darielle » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:07 pm

Minor quibble: freeing Windsor from captivity by Dark Iron Dwarves, not just giving him hope to expose Onyxia.

And... yeah. I agree. It is about what YOU did rather than the nouns the NPCs use. That IS what made me feel heroic. And I think there was a lot of that feeling questing in Vanilla and BC. I'm not sure why Brekkie says that we needed to look up to people who had done Naxx 40 back in the day as heroes. Personally I had a lot of disdain for those people because they got their awesome gear from being willing to sell out to a huge guild. I eventually sold out too because there wasn't a lot of room for non-40 man progression back in those days, but never did I look at the people raiding cutting edge content and aspire to one day be as awesome as them. My heroicness was validated quite well by the questing content and to be honest, doing content in a group of 40 people where I didn't even KNOW most of them severely cut down on how heroic the accomplishment felt. Especially when, as a Paladin, I basically contributed nothing to the overall effort.


You free him, but then he sits there doing nothing. Freeing him isn't a big deal - you killed some trash, probably dozens killed them as far as the game is concerned, but you were the one who gave him hope and set the plans into motion.

Brekkie's example IS about how the game treats you as opposed to how you feel going through. Right now, everyone's being shoved as far into content as possible - if you can't down Heroic content yet that's ok, because in two months with 30% nerf half of these fights are going to be literally as easy as Normal is now.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:49 am

But in that regard the notion of hero is in your own mind only. I don't think the term "heroic content" was meant to provide the type of meaning you're underline implies.

Personally I have a hard time believing anything in a MMORPG is heroic, especially on the PVE side. Don't get me wrong, I find it interesting to see what people accomplish in WoW. If you care more about those things there is plenty of tracking information available. If you killed all the bosses in heroic mode before the nerfs, the nerfs don't diminish what you did.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:00 am

Brekkie wrote:And more crucially, claiming that people will get stuck forever and need content nerfed is a self-fulfilling prophesy.


Well, to be fair, think of the time involved to level an alt or a new toon if the leveling curves were never adjusted. Same goes for progression in raids. Back in BC I was only really vaguely aware of tiers, it was just a natural progression. That changed radically with wrath. In part due to being with a better guild, but much in part to the way Blizz deployed content.

But I still think the key issue is that Blizz rushes people to the "end game", so people feel entitled to see the "end game". The combination of gear from vendors plus the simplification of leveling pushes people who might otherwise be content to run older content at a slower pace into the current tier, and expecting it on a platter.

And now we have LFR. While I like LFR for what it is for the current game, I would be aghast looking at it through BC goggles.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:11 am

One of the things I most dislike about the speed of the nerfs is that a 10m raid basically cannot complete a Legendary item prior to the nerf, whereas a 25m raid can. We've been pretty ragular about clearing, yet our rogue won't get the Legendary stage daggers till tomorrow night. I can see a slightly more heroic guild might get them sooner, or maybe gbeing lucky with the second phase of the quest, but not being able to get the Legendary till AFTER a 10% nerf... That sortof hurts.

Same with FL, maybe we could have been luckier at certain phases of the quest, and progressing heroics sooner could have helped us some too (had our schedule allowed for it), but we got our Legendary the week before DS came out, and I didn't hear of too many 10m raids that got one much earlier.

In DS, I felt that the biggest wall to progress as a 10m raider was getting 4pc tier sets for everyone, when we kept getting Conq tokens for the two of us. I personally was looting my 3rd 5pc set before some people on other tokens got a 4pc, and thats after the spriest got a 5pc. Some people are still using LFR tier, and I have 2pc heroic. Getting clobbered with a 5% nerf when we are struggling to get the OP set bonuses for everyone felt like a slap to the face.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am

Hrobertgar wrote:One of the things I most dislike about the speed of the nerfs is that a 10m raid basically cannot complete a Legendary item prior to the nerf, whereas a 25m raid can. We've been pretty ragular about clearing, yet our rogue won't get the Legendary stage daggers till tomorrow night. I can see a slightly more heroic guild might get them sooner, or maybe gbeing lucky with the second phase of the quest, but not being able to get the Legendary till AFTER a 10% nerf... That sortof hurts.

Same with FL, maybe we could have been luckier at certain phases of the quest, and progressing heroics sooner could have helped us some too (had our schedule allowed for it), but we got our Legendary the week before DS came out, and I didn't hear of too many 10m raids that got one much earlier.

In DS, I felt that the biggest wall to progress as a 10m raider was getting 4pc tier sets for everyone, when we kept getting Conq tokens for the two of us. I personally was looting my 3rd 5pc set before some people on other tokens got a 4pc, and thats after the spriest got a 5pc. Some people are still using LFR tier, and I have 2pc heroic. Getting clobbered with a 5% nerf when we are struggling to get the OP set bonuses for everyone felt like a slap to the face.

Fair complaints, but I think those fall more under the tuning of the reward system.

To be honest, I don't completely understand the need for tier wide nerfs, when different levels of difficulty already exist unless the gaps between them isn't quite right or something. However, I just don't get how a boss being nerfed cheapens my kill of him pre-nerf, I find that to be silly.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby benebarba » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:44 am

halabar wrote:Well, to be fair, think of the time involved to level an alt or a new toon if the leveling curves were never adjusted. Same goes for progression in raids. Back in BC I was only really vaguely aware of tiers, it was just a natural progression. That changed radically with wrath. In part due to being with a better guild, but much in part to the way Blizz deployed content.

But I still think the key issue is that Blizz rushes people to the "end game", so people feel entitled to see the "end game". The combination of gear from vendors plus the simplification of leveling pushes people who might otherwise be content to run older content at a slower pace into the current tier, and expecting it on a platter.

And now we have LFR. While I like LFR for what it is for the current game, I would be aghast looking at it through BC goggles.


Even though I started in wrath, I feel like Blizz has taken this position of 'current content is the only content' when it comes to raids, though it seems like it is even more apparent now than it was then, though that could just be because I'm paying more attention. Things like the trollroics and MF being set up to help raiders who were late to the party gear up to raid T-11/firelands, combined with the 2-token system seem to have helped this along. Granted those also had big advantages for players who'd been playing consistently as well (trollroics maybe less than the 2-token system and MF).

But I would think that the prevailing attitude of 'current content is the only content' goes back further than blizz adopting it as a design philosophy of sorts. Folks who raided vanilla and BC seem to indicate that for various reasons, even if the community thought that way, there were certainly a large number of people for who the new tier was not what they were doing. Though by the end of wrath, that had changed and it seems like Blizz just went with the flow as more people wanted to see more. And it probably made it easier to justify the work that had always been involved since it would presumably lead to more customers being satisfied and continuing to subscribe.

I'm actually wondering if we'll see in MOP this philosophy transition down to 5-man heroics (i.e. so a newly dinged 85 right now wouldn't be expected to do the release and trollroics before getting to the HoT heroics without cheesing ilvls or walking into an instance). I can't help but think that the change to PVP gear may help, especially if the crafted blues continue to get upgraded each tier. Because to be honest, I'd think it would make more sense to want to get people into the older raids (assuming LFR for each tier) than to have them continue to run old heroics until they can get to the new stuff.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby halabar » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:51 am

benebarba wrote:Even though I started in wrath, I feel like Blizz has taken this position of 'current content is the only content' when it comes to raids, ......

But I would think that the prevailing attitude of 'current content is the only content' goes back further than blizz adopting it as a design philosophy of sorts. Folks who raided vanilla and BC seem to indicate that for various reasons, even if the community thought that way, there were certainly a large number of people for who the new tier was not what they were doing. Though by the end of wrath, that had changed and it seems like Blizz just went with the flow as more people wanted to see more. And it probably made it easier to justify the work that had always been involved since it would presumably lead to more customers being satisfied and continuing to subscribe.


BC was definitely different. Remember attunements? that was part of it. There was a progression to the raid content. Wrath was a hard change-about. Didn't help that there was the "filler" Nax raid to start with.

It's almost as though Blizz does a gear reset with every tier now. That certainly wasn't the case in BC.
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