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Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Darielle » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:44 am

I'm not defending the "brick wall" encounters like Spine and Rag, but I think you're confusing two separate issues. Rag and Spine were overtuned even beyond intended, which is why they were hotfixed. The 15% spine nerf and the original Rag health nerf were essentially hotfixes to correct tuning. I think that had Spine been released with the 15% tendon nerf baked in, it wouldn't have been the brick wall that most guilds found it to be. Similarly with Rag.


I'm not confusing it. Both Rag and Spine are the poster child for "intentional overtuning" to stall people from finishing content too early. Spine was only nerfed at the 5%, instead of being hotfixed down a couple of weeks after people started being able to get to it. Rag was similarly only touched in terms of his Molten Elementals health and a big of Magma Trap damage reduction a couple of weeks before the 15% went in. Hell, Rag in the unnerfed killable version was even more overtuned when you consider that their intent with Breadth was for people to rotate through it instead of triangle it.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:09 am

Yes, spine should have gotten the tendon nerf earlier. I could have sworn that Rag got a health nerf before the raid-wide nerfs went through, but maybe my memory is off.

In both cases, they screwed up and over-shot their intentional overtuning on a single boss. I'm not saying that's a good thing, or that it's even intended. You could still have a smooth difficulty curve from boss to boss in an over-tuned instance.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Darielle » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:13 am

The Molten Elemental health was nerfed, and the Magma Trap damage was reduced. His health may have been hotfixed fairly EARLY at some point, but I don't remember exactly when, but I'm referring to that version before 15% which most people saw as the wall, cause it was.

I can guarantee that it was intended tuning as far as Spine and Rag go though. The alternative is that the developers can't use calculators to do simple division AND weren't paying attention.
Last edited by Darielle on Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:25 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:17 am

I'm sure there was a health hotfix that hit some groups in the middle of fighting him. But I have no idea when that happened.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:26 am

Darielle wrote:I can guarantee that it was intended tuning as far as Spine and Rag go though. The alternative is that the developers can't use calculators to do simple division AND weren't paying attention.

Given the number of tuning errors we've seen this expansion, I'd almost believe the latter. It's also possible that they just made a mistake somewhere (e.g. designing around a higher expected ilvl than most guilds had when they reached that point, or designing based on inaccurate estimates of what sort of raid DPS you could put out, or designing around one or two fewer healers than guilds ended up using).
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Darielle » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:34 am

Given the number of tuning errors we've seen this expansion, I'd almost believe the latter. It's also possible that they just made a mistake somewhere (e.g. designing around a higher expected ilvl than most guilds had when they reached that point, or designing based on inaccurate estimates of what sort of raid DPS you could put out, or designing around one or two fewer healers than guilds ended up using).


Well the funny part is that with Rag, people used LESS healers than I imagine Blizzard expected. 2-3 meteors and using 6 or 7 healers, instead of the 3-4 that most used, to deal with the damage that rotating people through Breadth would have involved, Dreadflame would have been wrecked face, considering it was already in the "batten down the hatches and circle the Breadth" point for many.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:38 am

That's what I mean. I think they expected players to handle the encounter one way (many healers to deal with Dreadflame), so their design targets were completely borked when people came up with a unique strategy that defied their expectations.

Spine though, well, I can't come up with a decent excuse for that. That was just lazy number-crunching, or a massive over-estimate of burst raid DPS. Maybe they tuned it based on max burst for each class without realizing that not all classes could use their cooldowns on every tendon, hence the stacking of arcane mages with staves and 4-pc T13?
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby Darielle » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:54 am

That's what I mean. I think they expected players to handle the encounter one way (many healers to deal with Dreadflame), so their design targets were completely borked when people came up with a unique strategy that defied their expectations.


Well, yes, but that happens all over the place (like I don't think their intent with Twin Valks was to have people in two clumps with a couple of people playing catch). It just happened that people found a way to make it easier and actually make the requirements manageable, and they had to 3 or 4 heal it to pull THAT off.

Spine though, well, I can't come up with a decent excuse for that. That was just lazy number-crunching, or a massive over-estimate of burst raid DPS. Maybe they tuned it based on max burst for each class without realizing that not all classes could use their cooldowns on every tendon, hence the stacking of arcane mages with staves and 4-pc T13?


Some classes can't even hit the burst req WITH all their cooldowns popped. It was just stupid. But then, the entire fight is that way.
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Re: Coming soon, to a Dragon Soul near you...

Postby econ21 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:34 pm

I have to say initially I was sympathetic to the nerfs, but now that they have happened, I think they were a mistake. This is from the perspective of someone who's never killed a raid boss on heroic mode and dwells on the 20th worst ranked EU server. The problem is that we are now done with DS normal mode and there's not that much else to do. We probably will attempt a few heroic modes, but it will be with little enthusiasm. It's just not what the majority of the guild are interested in. We still run DS weekly, but quite a few members disdain the experience as it seems too easy. 5% prompted some disdain; 10% a lot. I can't imagine the sneers this Friday when we do it at 15%. Yes, we could switch off the buff, but I don't think anyone in the guild would even contemplate this. It's not just that we are done with DS - it's that we are supposed to be done with it. For a tier that's supposed to last us until August/September/October, whatever, that's leaving quite a big hole.

I don't know the stats, but I suspect progression in T11 and T12 was a lot slower. The nerfs to DS came quicker and people were hurried through. It's not clear why - there was no rush. Three months without a nerf would have been fine - one month was just too short.

The nerfs are probably not the main problem. The lack of tier content, and the irrelevance of earlier tiers now, are probably more significant. When we went through Ulduar on our second raid night last weekend (having cleared DS on the first), someone commented on what if Blizzard put in scaling so that old raids could still be challenging for end-game raiders - we'd virtually never run out of content. I'd never seen much of Ulduar and had to agree - there's so much content in WoW, quests and instances, but you are raced through to get to three 5 mans and seven raid bosses. It's a waste.
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