World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Dantriges » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:31 am

It´s a bit annying that they took out the old tool of the undodgeable now unblockable attack. Especially after the tanks who benefited the most from it, already run into the cap that smoothed out the benefit.

Not such a big deal but a "huh what" moment. So it pushed us above the other guys and the moement the other tanks catch up, they implement mechanics to counteract block instead of implementing the earlier?
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:38 am

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:Holy hell just watch Absalom's video and you can see why it doesn't matter unless you are pushing for world first what class of tank you bring. Do you know what matters how awesome the DPS were in that video. I'm not talking about class stacking/ or a million taregosas I am talking about their ability to pay attention. That matters so much more than what tanks you are bringing especially once you have more gear. Sure the first week of heroics it might matter but we're in the whatever week.

I'm linking his video again so people can watch. The DPS are phenomenal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paz59lpg ... e=youtu.be

They do the amygs perfect like they don't even put any stress on healers I'm like omg they are going to kill that and then they didn't. Then at one point I'm like there is no way this corruption is going to live and thing is sitting there with like 5 hp... and no morons cleave things down they aren't suppose to. After the extra week in there with more gear the tanks you bring aren't going to make nearly as much difference ( fine they can always make a difference, but really guys have dps that play like this and you win no matter what tanks you're bringing).

I loved how they had the dps warrior tank the 0 stack amyg and then just wow! The DPS was on spot with everything!!! The fight will become increasingly more easy with nerfs and win you can pop lust on last one and kill it in one thing.

I think from reading all these post I've gathered

Does the tank you bring make a difference? Absolutely, but unless pushing for world first the first week of heroic modes really everyone doing their job period is going to make more of a difference. Like the one guy had said sitting hunters/boomkins ends up makeing much more of a difference. Ya know I promised myself a productive day instead I'm reading forums/typing/ watching videos dang it!
I'm not sure how you don't get the exact opposite conclusion. With their execution at such a high level, it probably didn't matter nearly as much for them as it will for another group where execution is sloppier.

That execution is the by far the biggest factor was never in question, but if you have perfect execution the boss would be dead already. You try to pick the best talents, the best gear, the best enchants, the best gems etc, none of those matter nearly as much execution. It's all about increasing your odds, and the choice of tank class (or dps makeup etc) can fall into that area too. Again, the elite that get kills with less gear, shows that gear is more important for lower level guilds because their execution may not be good enough to beat the boss without it, when obviously the elite didn't need it. I'm not sure why that wouldn't also extend to other factors.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:37 am

I can just say that from personal experience, gear and class stacking only gets more and more important the higher the ranks you are pushing.
I remember when i raided "casually" 5 days a week 4 hours a day, gear had little to do with our sucess, just like stacking the right classes had pretty small impact in the outcome of the raid.
When people are only playing their chars to 50-60% of its max it doesnt really matter if you have the perfect gear/gem for it, or even specc or class.
I could barely if ever notice any differance from the week before when that basically meant people got a few items each, these days, every single week as people get items you can notice a big differance.
If people are playing their chars to close to 100% of its capabilities, that means every single item/stat/gem you gain is always a gain.
When people are playing at 60% of the chars ability, sure more gear doensnt make things worse, but having so unreliable players means that even if you have more gear this week, you might be outperformed by your last weeks character, meaning an upgrade doesnt automaticly always mean better play than before.
Whats the point in bringing in an overpowered class for an encounter, who then completely doesnt understand the concept of WHY they are overpowered and fails to outperform others for the task they were invited to?
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:40 pm

Treck wrote:I can just say that from personal experience, gear and class stacking only gets more and more important the higher the ranks you are pushing.
I remember when i raided "casually" 5 days a week 4 hours a day, gear had little to do with our sucess, just like stacking the right classes had pretty small impact in the outcome of the raid.
When people are only playing their chars to 50-60% of its max it doesnt really matter if you have the perfect gear/gem for it, or even specc or class.
I could barely if ever notice any differance from the week before when that basically meant people got a few items each, these days, every single week as people get items you can notice a big differance.
If people are playing their chars to close to 100% of its capabilities, that means every single item/stat/gem you gain is always a gain.
When people are playing at 60% of the chars ability, sure more gear doensnt make things worse, but having so unreliable players means that even if you have more gear this week, you might be outperformed by your last weeks character, meaning an upgrade doesnt automaticly always mean better play than before.
Whats the point in bringing in an overpowered class for an encounter, who then completely doesnt understand the concept of WHY they are overpowered and fails to outperform others for the task they were invited to?

Again, you are talking about replacing a good player with an idiot, which is absurd and not at all relevant. No one has advocated such stupidity.

When you are more efficient as elite guilds are, you get more out of every aspect, and when you are less efficient you get less. But it's a wash, gear upgrades aren't marginalized and neither is anything else because it's all relative. You are basically contradicting yourself here too. On one hand you are saying that when you overgear content, X mechanic doesn't matter, and on the other hand saying gear doesn't matter either because skill isn't good enough to make it matter. I mean take your assertions to their logical conclusion and nothing matters for bad guilds, but everything matters for elite guilds...uh huh. The fact is it all matters, whether you are in an elite guild or not. If you can gain an advantage by getting better gear, by stacking the raid in some beneficial manner, by using a different tanking class, whatever, it all increases your odds of success. Obviously, doing so without substituting idiots for good players (just trying to head off the 500th post suggesting otherwise).
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby PsiVen » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:17 pm

There are many different types of advantages which are perceived as OP but only actually exist under certain circumstances -- say Arcane mages in T11 if you have Shard of Woe, or MM hunters if you stack expertise, or Beefmasters using 2pc/2pc from different tiers. You don't have to be an idiot to not be able to press a class advantage that "should" be there on paper.

Execution is a very personal thing, and it's highly unlikely that you will find two people who are different classes but execute at the same level (especially since that changes from attempt to attempt). More likely you have a number of players who execute at a high enough level that you are satisfied, and a number of players who consistently perform worse and the long-term goal is to recruit people who perform better than they do, of the classes you need for synergy, not optimal DPS-in-a-vacuum. Guilds outside the world-first races are more likely to be struggling to keep a single Demo lock in their roster than worrying about stacking a 3rd Feral for 4pc.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby fafhrd » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:38 pm

PsiVen wrote: or MM hunters if you stack expertise


did I miss something awesome...
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby halabar » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:48 pm

fafhrd wrote:
PsiVen wrote: or MM hunters if you stack expertise


did I miss something awesome...


I don't think that one exists anymore... much like the beastmaster one.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:59 pm

PsiVen wrote:There are many different types of advantages which are perceived as OP but only actually exist under certain circumstances -- say Arcane mages in T11 if you have Shard of Woe, or MM hunters if you stack expertise, or Beefmasters using 2pc/2pc from different tiers. You don't have to be an idiot to not be able to press a class advantage that "should" be there on paper.

Execution is a very personal thing, and it's highly unlikely that you will find two people who are different classes but execute at the same level (especially since that changes from attempt to attempt). More likely you have a number of players who execute at a high enough level that you are satisfied, and a number of players who consistently perform worse and the long-term goal is to recruit people who perform better than they do, of the classes you need for synergy, not optimal DPS-in-a-vacuum. Guilds outside the world-first races are more likely to be struggling to keep a single Demo lock in their roster than worrying about stacking a 3rd Feral for 4pc.

Sure, but those circumstances are generally not, "you aren't good enough to see any advantage to this, it only matters at all to us world first guilds".

Yet again, whether or not you have the classes available is completely irrelevant, to the point that the advantage doesn't disappear for guilds not pushing for world first kills.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:17 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Sure, but those circumstances are generally not, "you aren't good enough to see any advantage to this, it only matters at all to us world first guilds".

Yet again, whether or not you have the classes available is completely irrelevant, to the point that the advantage doesn't disappear for guilds not pushing for world first kills.

None ever said that the advantage disapears when you go down the ranks of guilds.
The advantage is still very much there.
But a lot of people are observing that the advantage isnt as apparent in a mid lvl guild as in a top guild, as theres many other factors that decide the outcome than basicly just the classes that is brought.

But at the same time, you cant really look at a mid level guild and say "hey bring 8 mages of exactly the same skill as your other 6people you replace and lets kill spine", cuz you are not going to have that situation ever.

As for the question if you should bring tank A or tank B, you take tank A for a top guild if you can if he is even slightly better for the task at hand.
As for a medium level guild, you dont chooce tank A or B, cuz one class is better than another, you take the tank you feel the most comfortable to have in that position.
Sure, taking tank A "should" give you the edge, but unless the rest of your raid is optimized with the perfect setup, you wont really notice much enough of a differance in one tank or the other given the same skill and performance, not to mention the motivation is completely different.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:36 pm

Treck wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Sure, but those circumstances are generally not, "you aren't good enough to see any advantage to this, it only matters at all to us world first guilds".

Yet again, whether or not you have the classes available is completely irrelevant, to the point that the advantage doesn't disappear for guilds not pushing for world first kills.

None ever said that the advantage disapears when you go down the ranks of guilds.
The advantage is still very much there.
But a lot of people are observing that the advantage isnt as apparent in a mid lvl guild as in a top guild, as theres many other factors that decide the outcome than basicly just the classes that is brought.

But at the same time, you cant really look at a mid level guild and say "hey bring 8 mages of exactly the same skill as your other 6people you replace and lets kill spine", cuz you are not going to have that situation ever.

As for the question if you should bring tank A or tank B, you take tank A for a top guild if you can if he is even slightly better for the task at hand.
As for a medium level guild, you dont chooce tank A or B, cuz one class is better than another, you take the tank you feel the most comfortable to have in that position.
Sure, taking tank A "should" give you the edge, but unless the rest of your raid is optimized with the perfect setup, you wont really notice much enough of a differance in one tank or the other given the same skill and performance, not to mention the motivation is completely different.
I don't disagree with any of that really, nor have I at any point in this thread. The only thing I ever said was that the advantage doesn't disappear. I was responding to a comment that mid level guilds should not bother with changing tanks because the advantage does not matter for them, which I believe is inaccurate.

The only thing I would mention, is that given this content isn't solo tankable for the most part, many guilds have multiple tanks that they deem as reliable as each other. The tank that you are comfortable with for an encounter, can often be the tank whose class best matches up to that encounter. If someone is always the "main" tank because he's better than other tanks (or for whatever reason), fine don't swap, but there are plenty guilds who use their tanks interchangeably to best suit the encounter. You don't have to spend but about 30 seconds in the strategy section here to see that.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:59 pm

That works for me.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:50 am

That still doesn't jive. Gear, skill, execution etc all add up to some level of output. Once you reach the boss, your output is roughly equal (or slightly less since early guilds likely overshot what was needed) albeit aided by additional gear. So, unless the abilities that cause you to use a specific tank are heavily affected by gear scaling, these guilds would have more of a reason to make the switch than top guilds who are able to operate within much tighter margins.


I think of it as margin. KIN took 300+ tries to down spine. So, like a 0.3% success rate (ok , a lot was learning mechanics and setting strategies). If benching the pally gave them a 0.01% bosot, that is a big deal for them to get the world first.

Two weeks later, they can down spine in maybe 10 tries, so like a 10% success rate. If the pally penalty is still 0.01%, then it is irrelevant. Most guilds will have gear equal to or better than this level, so that the difference in tanking capabilities is usually masked by player skill both in general and in dealing with specific mechanics.

As far as specific mechanics, for some of my runs on Alysrazor and H-Alys, we sent a melee class up to fly, as that player was more comfortable flying than our ranged DoT class, the kills went fine. So eating a small non-optimum situation is doable when you are not pushing world/server firsts.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:56 pm

Hrobertgar wrote:
That still doesn't jive. Gear, skill, execution etc all add up to some level of output. Once you reach the boss, your output is roughly equal (or slightly less since early guilds likely overshot what was needed) albeit aided by additional gear. So, unless the abilities that cause you to use a specific tank are heavily affected by gear scaling, these guilds would have more of a reason to make the switch than top guilds who are able to operate within much tighter margins.


I think of it as margin. KIN took 300+ tries to down spine. So, like a 0.3% success rate (ok , a lot was learning mechanics and setting strategies). If benching the pally gave them a 0.01% bosot, that is a big deal for them to get the world first.

Two weeks later, they can down spine in maybe 10 tries, so like a 10% success rate. If the pally penalty is still 0.01%, then it is irrelevant. Most guilds will have gear equal to or better than this level, so that the difference in tanking capabilities is usually masked by player skill both in general and in dealing with specific mechanics.

As far as specific mechanics, for some of my runs on Alysrazor and H-Alys, we sent a melee class up to fly, as that player was more comfortable flying than our ranged DoT class, the kills went fine. So eating a small non-optimum situation is doable when you are not pushing world/server firsts.

Eating a small non-optimum situation is always doable, by definition. Further by definition, it is non-optimum, so why use that strategy when you don't need to? World first or not doesn't matter.

You're example proves my point. Why did you bother with the DoT player to begin with? You aren't in a world first guild, you have more gear, so those things don't matter at all, right? You can't say those things don't matter and then try to take advantage of them at the same time, you just contradict yourself.

You ultimately chose the player with the better output and I would too. That doesn't mean you ignore mechanics that favor certain classes, because you aren't competing for a world first kill. Again, I'd argue the tank and raid taking less damage helps raids at any level, probably mid level raids even more than the elite.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Hokahey » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:01 am

I always thought of any type of optimization (gear, stats, rotation, raid composition, etc) to really only be an allowance for margin of error in execution. The same applies to having higher ilvl gear. The better optimized, the better the ilvl of your gear your raid has, the more mistakes you can afford to make and still get a kill.

The "first week" level guilds (those downing the content in the first week) are, in theory, doing these encounters with almost exclusively the gear from the previous tier, and therefore the lowest ilvl. Only a few people have gotten upgrades along their progression to seeing the most difficult encounters. As time drags on, the guilds that are downing those encounters in subsequent weeks will have gotten more upgrades along the way (assuming participation in each weekly lockout) before reaching the final encounters for the first time. So they will arrive at the last encounter in a higher average ilvl gear than the first week guilds.

Therefore, in terms of ilvl (theoretically), first week guilds have the smallest room for error. They often choose to expand this room for error by picking certain classes or specs over others, according to which ones are most beneficial in the encounter's mechanics. Which is where the perception of it mattering less for mid-level raids comes from.

That's my (admittedly ignorant) understanding of it.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:28 am

Skill offsets the gear though. Top level guilds have more skill, they have tighter rotations, they make fewer mistakes, they have faster reaction times, and better situational awareness etc. They choose to take these advantages because they are advantages, so why wouldn't you? It's no different than picking the proper enchant, or gear, or talent spec etc. Ultimately, it all adds up to a combined output, and by the time you reach a boss as a mid level guild, your output isn't likely to be considerably higher than the elite guild's output was when they reached that boss. You just needed more gear to get your output to match theirs so you could make it there. In terms of ilvl sure they operate on a smaller margin, but mid level guilds operate on smaller margins in terms of skill, so it is a wash.

Advantages might be more situational for mid level guilds who may not have the class composition/players to take advantage of some things that elite guilds do, but their impact doesn't disappear.
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