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World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:55 pm

Skye1013 wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:But you aren't changing your skill level, it's basically static at this point, it is what it is. Sure, there's more hay to be made by playing better, but that's just not going happen, so if anything, class balance matters more because the skill level is less efficient other factors are magnified.

My skill level with a paladin is X. My skill level with a DK is X-1. Which is better to take?

I'm not sure how that's a valid question, and wasn't directly answered already. If you are going to perform better with your pally, why would you ever take anything else? Again though, that has nothing to do with what I'm saying.

theckhd wrote:I still disagree with the idea that when skill level varies more greatly, class imbalance gets magnified. As an example, if enhancement shamans are 10% behind ret paladins in simulations, do you automatically bench your enhancement shaman for another ret? Maybe in a top guild, where that 10% edge can be expected to manifest itself because the players are all playing to near perfection. But not in an average guild, where you can't necessarily expect that result. We have an excellent enhancement shaman who outperforms lots of other classes that he shouldn't be on paper, because he's an excellent player. Hence, in that case player skill more than makes up for class imbalance.

Another way to think of it is as an experimental error or variation. If you throw 25 meter sticks through a wood chipper, you don't expect the minor length errors inherent in producing meter sticks to be the biggest variation in length. It'll be the giant fluctuations caused by the fact that they just got chopped off to near-arbitrary lengths by a wood chipper!

In other words, it's a difference between perceived gain and practical, empirical gains. If the class imbalance is small, as it seems to be on spine, then it's of almost no use for most guilds to start class stacking. It's only at the very top where it makes sense. If the class imbalance becomes very large (ex: tanking Illidan pre-3.0, where you basically needed Shield Block), then that sort of thing will turn into a practical gain, and the average guild will start pursuing that advantage.
I think it ought to go without saying, that I'm not suggesting you take a worse player, or a player who even with some class advantage performs worse than some other player without that advantage. However, that you are making that comparison means you are not understanding my point.

If you have a tank whose damage intake will be higher because, for instance, a large portion of the damage put out ignores block mechanics, and you have another tank who doesn't rely on block mechanics, why would you use the block tank? Because he's a better player? OK, but that's not the point so please stop with that. It's like framing my comment in the most silly context possible, and it's not at all what I'm talking about. The point is that the mechanic still very much matters, even if your guild is mid level. In fact especially if your guild is mid level relative to elite guilds.

Generally speaking, situational awareness, reaction time, and knowledge will be less in a mid level guild than an elite guild. Meaning you are far more likely to see people taking avoidable damage, doing less dps (therefore extending the fight duration), healing less efficiently etc. That stuff is what it is, practice will help, but you aren't going to see some dramatic increase in skill just because you tell your guild that this boss is particularly tough on the tank's mechanics. So you manage the things you can control, like choosing a tank that takes less damage, or choosing a tank whose class has better skills at picking up and controlling adds. The fact that you aren't completely min/maxed doesn't mean that those mechanics are all the sudden irrelevant.

I'm not saying anyone should bench anyone. What I am saying is that these mechanics aren't applicable just to the elite guilds of the world. These mechanics often do matter to any guild attempting a given boss. If you don't have a viable alternative tank, then of course you wouldn't swap tanks, but I'm sure plenty of guilds do have access to a non pally tank that's just as good as their tankadin. I mean plenty of guilds use several tanks in their raids quite regularly.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:38 am

Pyrea wrote:On Normal mode, glyphed Holy Wrath stuns the bloods. Is this viable on heroic or would getting in range of them to do so mean dying to twenty melee swings?

A prot pally kiting is more than capable of stunning them himself with holy wrath.
Getting in meele range of them shouldnt even oneshot you tho, its more dmg than your healers can handle when you have multiple debuffs, and theres also no reason whatsoever to tank them as that basicly just means you take dmg you dont have to take.
You can easily run into a corner of the area you have, then wait for them to get close, then stunn them with holy wrath and run through them if you want.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:01 am

Fridmarr wrote:The point is that the mechanic still very much matters, even if your guild is mid level. In fact especially if your guild is mid level relative to elite guilds.

If that is your point, a mid level guild outgears the fight they are trying to do with miles, and its not very important to bring the right class anymore as its a matter of executing the fight properly, and you dont "need" the right classes for the raid to perform correctly.
But, you are correct, IF you can choose between 2 classes that have as skilled players, one is still going to be better than the other, but then you would most likely run with both (assuming they are good) and replace someone else who "should" perform better.
Honestly, for me it feels like the whole "faction change to get better racials" discussion.
You can gain a tiny tiny benefit from actually faction changing, does that mean the non top tier guilds should all be Horde? since if its a differance in the top guilds, there would be an even bigger differance in a mid level guild?
Not trying to argue that, but what i want to have said is that, Yes you can get a small gain from it, but theres so many factors that could need improvement before thinking of changing faction even should come up in a discussion (like you yourself hinted towards later down your post)
That said, im very happy KIN raiders are ally, proving my point once and for all that strategy is so much more important, even on a fight that was basicly designed around the horde racials.


Fridmarr wrote:If you don't have a viable alternative tank, then of course you wouldn't swap tanks, but I'm sure plenty of guilds do have access to a non pally tank that's just as good as their tankadin. I mean plenty of guilds use several tanks in their raids quite regularly.

The fight requires two tanks anyway, if your warrior can perform better with the kiting, put him on it, if not, use your paladin.
Most fights have two very different tanking positions, you dont "need" to swap in and out players, but its usually easy to just swap around the assignements, since some people are more capable of doing one task than another.
Say you have two prot paladins for spine, you can do it, and you put your most capable pallytank on the kiting, if the other thinks he can do better he can always try, and he might be better at that, even if you consider them both to be on equal "skill level"
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby theckhd » Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:47 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
theckhd wrote:I still disagree with the idea that when skill level varies more greatly, class imbalance gets magnified. As an example, if enhancement shamans are 10% behind ret paladins in simulations, do you automatically bench your enhancement shaman for another ret? Maybe in a top guild, where that 10% edge can be expected to manifest itself because the players are all playing to near perfection. But not in an average guild, where you can't necessarily expect that result. We have an excellent enhancement shaman who outperforms lots of other classes that he shouldn't be on paper, because he's an excellent player. Hence, in that case player skill more than makes up for class imbalance.

Another way to think of it is as an experimental error or variation. If you throw 25 meter sticks through a wood chipper, you don't expect the minor length errors inherent in producing meter sticks to be the biggest variation in length. It'll be the giant fluctuations caused by the fact that they just got chopped off to near-arbitrary lengths by a wood chipper!

In other words, it's a difference between perceived gain and practical, empirical gains. If the class imbalance is small, as it seems to be on spine, then it's of almost no use for most guilds to start class stacking. It's only at the very top where it makes sense. If the class imbalance becomes very large (ex: tanking Illidan pre-3.0, where you basically needed Shield Block), then that sort of thing will turn into a practical gain, and the average guild will start pursuing that advantage.
I think it ought to go without saying, that I'm not suggesting you take a worse player, or a player who even with some class advantage performs worse than some other player without that advantage. However, that you are making that comparison means you are not understanding my point.

If you have a tank whose damage intake will be higher because, for instance, a large portion of the damage put out ignores block mechanics, and you have another tank who doesn't rely on block mechanics, why would you use the block tank? Because he's a better player? OK, but that's not the point so please stop with that. It's like framing my comment in the most silly context possible, and it's not at all what I'm talking about. The point is that the mechanic still very much matters, even if your guild is mid level. In fact especially if your guild is mid level relative to elite guilds.

Generally speaking, situational awareness, reaction time, and knowledge will be less in a mid level guild than an elite guild. Meaning you are far more likely to see people taking avoidable damage, doing less dps (therefore extending the fight duration), healing less efficiently etc. That stuff is what it is, practice will help, but you aren't going to see some dramatic increase in skill just because you tell your guild that this boss is particularly tough on the tank's mechanics. So you manage the things you can control, like choosing a tank that takes less damage, or choosing a tank whose class has better skills at picking up and controlling adds. The fact that you aren't completely min/maxed doesn't mean that those mechanics are all the sudden irrelevant.

I'm not saying anyone should bench anyone. What I am saying is that these mechanics aren't applicable just to the elite guilds of the world. These mechanics often do matter to any guild attempting a given boss. If you don't have a viable alternative tank, then of course you wouldn't swap tanks, but I'm sure plenty of guilds do have access to a non pally tank that's just as good as their tankadin. I mean plenty of guilds use several tanks in their raids quite regularly.


I think that's basically what I covered in my last paragraph. If the class imbalance is severe (like extreme amounts of unblockable damage making one tank much harder to heal, or a fight where a skill like Heroic Leap makes Warriors far and away better at the job than any other class), then yes, that sort of thing will make a pretty big difference even for guilds outside the top 50.

But generally the imbalances aren't that large, and as Treck pointed out, by the time these guilds approach the content they already overgear it. And I'd argue that in the mid-level guild you described, the variation in player skill will be much larger than it is at the top end, making it even more unlikely that they have access to two tanks of identical skill level. And in such a situation, even a small imbalance in player skill can be enough to swamp the majority of mechanics-based class imbalances. It's only the really blatant cases, like I mentioned above, that it becomes a limiting factor.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:32 pm

theckhd wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
theckhd wrote:I still disagree with the idea that when skill level varies more greatly, class imbalance gets magnified. As an example, if enhancement shamans are 10% behind ret paladins in simulations, do you automatically bench your enhancement shaman for another ret? Maybe in a top guild, where that 10% edge can be expected to manifest itself because the players are all playing to near perfection. But not in an average guild, where you can't necessarily expect that result. We have an excellent enhancement shaman who outperforms lots of other classes that he shouldn't be on paper, because he's an excellent player. Hence, in that case player skill more than makes up for class imbalance.

Another way to think of it is as an experimental error or variation. If you throw 25 meter sticks through a wood chipper, you don't expect the minor length errors inherent in producing meter sticks to be the biggest variation in length. It'll be the giant fluctuations caused by the fact that they just got chopped off to near-arbitrary lengths by a wood chipper!

In other words, it's a difference between perceived gain and practical, empirical gains. If the class imbalance is small, as it seems to be on spine, then it's of almost no use for most guilds to start class stacking. It's only at the very top where it makes sense. If the class imbalance becomes very large (ex: tanking Illidan pre-3.0, where you basically needed Shield Block), then that sort of thing will turn into a practical gain, and the average guild will start pursuing that advantage.
I think it ought to go without saying, that I'm not suggesting you take a worse player, or a player who even with some class advantage performs worse than some other player without that advantage. However, that you are making that comparison means you are not understanding my point.

If you have a tank whose damage intake will be higher because, for instance, a large portion of the damage put out ignores block mechanics, and you have another tank who doesn't rely on block mechanics, why would you use the block tank? Because he's a better player? OK, but that's not the point so please stop with that. It's like framing my comment in the most silly context possible, and it's not at all what I'm talking about. The point is that the mechanic still very much matters, even if your guild is mid level. In fact especially if your guild is mid level relative to elite guilds.

Generally speaking, situational awareness, reaction time, and knowledge will be less in a mid level guild than an elite guild. Meaning you are far more likely to see people taking avoidable damage, doing less dps (therefore extending the fight duration), healing less efficiently etc. That stuff is what it is, practice will help, but you aren't going to see some dramatic increase in skill just because you tell your guild that this boss is particularly tough on the tank's mechanics. So you manage the things you can control, like choosing a tank that takes less damage, or choosing a tank whose class has better skills at picking up and controlling adds. The fact that you aren't completely min/maxed doesn't mean that those mechanics are all the sudden irrelevant.

I'm not saying anyone should bench anyone. What I am saying is that these mechanics aren't applicable just to the elite guilds of the world. These mechanics often do matter to any guild attempting a given boss. If you don't have a viable alternative tank, then of course you wouldn't swap tanks, but I'm sure plenty of guilds do have access to a non pally tank that's just as good as their tankadin. I mean plenty of guilds use several tanks in their raids quite regularly.


I think that's basically what I covered in my last paragraph. If the class imbalance is severe (like extreme amounts of unblockable damage making one tank much harder to heal, or a fight where a skill like Heroic Leap makes Warriors far and away better at the job than any other class), then yes, that sort of thing will make a pretty big difference even for guilds outside the top 50.

But generally the imbalances aren't that large, and as Treck pointed out, by the time these guilds approach the content they already overgear it. And I'd argue that in the mid-level guild you described, the variation in player skill will be much larger than it is at the top end, making it even more unlikely that they have access to two tanks of identical skill level. And in such a situation, even a small imbalance in player skill can be enough to swamp the majority of mechanics-based class imbalances. It's only the really blatant cases, like I mentioned above, that it becomes a limiting factor.
Well the rest of your paragraphs weren't really related to my position then anyhow.

It's not at all unusual to have multiple tanks without a discernible difference in talent. As I think back through the guilds on my server and the tanks that they used, I'm sure it's far more common than not actually. The overgearing concept doesn't really change anything though, that's just the compensation for other shortcomings. I mean if they executed perfectly, they wouldn't need to over gear the encounter in the first place.

An advantage is an advantage.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Lieris » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:07 pm

Sorry to quote myself but it bears repeating:

Lieris wrote:And again the disadvantage isn't enough to hamper progression. Having DPS in the 90~ percentile and 2-3 amazing healers on 10 man and having nobody die matters far more than the tank you choose. We are actually the least important piece of the puzzle.


If you're going to play the min/max class game you should remove your feral cat druids, warlocks (keep one for buffs) and hunters before you even think about changing the tank. Moonkin druids aren't in a great place either right now.

Or just accept that it really isn't that big of a deal.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Dec 26, 2011 2:43 pm

I'd certainly tend to bring my higher DPS players. The nice thing about DPS is that it's fairly easy to measure, and that measurement could care less about balance. I never really benched anyone, but I would certainly let my warrior/dk tank handle something more fitting of their class skills and vice versa.

If you're the primary tank in a 10 man, or you don't have faith in any of your other tanks to do the job well enough, then I wouldn't expect you change roles for a fight. But at the same time, when folks who have access to tanks whose mechanics happen to be favored in a given fight, are they really supposed to ignore that because they aren't elite or haven't completely min/maxed?

Again though, none of that is really about my point, which is that these sorts of advantages are not only applicable to the elite.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Lieris » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:15 pm

And again, the differences are exaggerated at their level. It doesn't matter if you are a 10 or a 25 man guild, you probably only have 1-2 tanks with a designated main tank. You do not need to bench your paladin main tank to make good progress and we are not as important as the DPS setup. I think consistency is important and it would be insulting to most people if they were relegated to substitute because their spec isn't as good that tier as it was in the last one. I don't think it's reasonable to be ruthless with the tank setup and not apply that to the DPS as there are half a dozen specs that should go on the chopping block before we do.

If you were struggling to kill Alakir and Yorsahj with a paladin tank (two fights that favour us the least this expansion) then I can assure you the problem wasn't because of the tank selection.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:13 pm

Lieris wrote:And again, the differences are exaggerated at their level. It doesn't matter if you are a 10 or a 25 man guild, you probably only have 1-2 tanks with a designated main tank. You do not need to bench your paladin main tank to make good progress and we are not as important as the DPS setup. I think consistency is important and it would be insulting to most people if they were relegated to substitute because their spec isn't as good that tier as it was in the last one. I don't think it's reasonable to be ruthless with the tank setup and not apply that to the DPS as there are half a dozen specs that should go on the chopping block before we do.

If you were struggling to kill Alakir and Yorsahj with a paladin tank (two fights that favour us the least this expansion) then I can assure you the problem wasn't because of the tank selection.

Ruthless??? WTF???

And again...they aren't exaggerated, I'd argue that more damage being taken by the raid and tanks due to unfavorable mechanics are far more exaggerated at the non elite level where reaction time and situation awareness are not as high.

As for the rest, I haven't suggested any of that at all, at any point. In fact I've repeatedly in almost every post, suggested the exact opposite. It's a tangent that I'm not the least bit interested in, because it's entirely situational and not all related to the point.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Awyndel » Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:05 pm

Magic spikes rarely come without melee hits before or after them. And if you mix those up we still have the largest reliable EH pool of all tanks. We have had the whole expansion. That is, if you go for maximum mastery, and thus maximum hp.

Plus, we have the best cd's. They are all mitigation. And we don't need to use them to stay alive in the first place.

Yes we don't have the magic tricks the dk does, or the selfhealing, but we are a lot more stable and predictable to heal. And we have LOH, WOG and bubble. Everybody has their own tricks.

We can't kite like a warrior no, but that's why you bring 2 tanks to an add fight.

Druids are doing fine tbh. Very good overall stats. But I wouldn't want to gear up one of them during progression, with all the competition.

4 set bonus is strong for everybody, but so is actually putting all your raid cd's on cooldown all the time.

Tbh don't just copy some top guild. Just bring a tank who can squize the maximum out of their class by actually using all abilities available.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Absalom » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:44 am

A link to our US First Heroic Madness 25M kill - http://youtu.be/ioM8RT-LWzI

Again, prot pallies were not ideal as so little of the lethal damage was able to be blocked, but it is certainly not impossible. Rumours of our demise are unfounded, although I do hope Mists finds us in a better place. This was our 69th attempt.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Lieris » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:03 am

Russian guild Spine kill using a prot paladin: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-u ... 491&e=5162
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby bomzix » Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:53 am

A big issue seems to be about CTC and the fact that big abilities aren't blockable.

Full CTC isn't mandatory, it's a choice. you gem, enchant and pick gear for it. Perhaps heavy raiders don't feel this but as a 365/378 tank who suddenly has acess to 397 VP + LFR gear let me tell you that it IS a choice. Right now my upgrades cost me CTC coverage in return for more dodge/parry and stamina.

Having choices, especially hard ones, is good.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby poptart » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:46 am

Gratz Absalom!

Well done. That is fantastic! :)

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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:14 am

Holy hell just watch Absalom's video and you can see why it doesn't matter unless you are pushing for world first what class of tank you bring. Do you know what matters how awesome the DPS were in that video. I'm not talking about class stacking/ or a million taregosas I am talking about their ability to pay attention. That matters so much more than what tanks you are bringing especially once you have more gear. Sure the first week of heroics it might matter but we're in the whatever week.

I'm linking his video again so people can watch. The DPS are phenomenal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Paz59lpg ... e=youtu.be

They do the amygs perfect like they don't even put any stress on healers I'm like omg they are going to kill that and then they didn't. Then at one point I'm like there is no way this corruption is going to live and thing is sitting there with like 5 hp... and no morons cleave things down they aren't suppose to. After the extra week in there with more gear the tanks you bring aren't going to make nearly as much difference ( fine they can always make a difference, but really guys have dps that play like this and you win no matter what tanks you're bringing).

I loved how they had the dps warrior tank the 0 stack amyg and then just wow! The DPS was on spot with everything!!! The fight will become increasingly more easy with nerfs and win you can pop lust on last one and kill it in one thing.

I think from reading all these post I've gathered

Does the tank you bring make a difference? Absolutely, but unless pushing for world first the first week of heroic modes really everyone doing their job period is going to make more of a difference. Like the one guy had said sitting hunters/boomkins ends up makeing much more of a difference. Ya know I promised myself a productive day instead I'm reading forums/typing/ watching videos dang it!
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