World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Shoju » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:01 pm

Worldie wrote:
Shoju wrote:Are DK's really double stamming it in H:DS? That just seems... odd. I mean, I guess unless they are pairing

This with This I can't imagine 2 other stamina trinkets at that level of progression that are going to give you as much "bang for the buck" in saving your butt type effects as those two.

I think they aren't, but I'm no great expert for it.

Mastery / Sta seembs to be the most common combo as far as i know.


Ok. I just couldn't see a reason to go double stam, except maybe Spine and Madness from looking over logs and damage and the like. Scales of Life + a mastery trinket is the setup I plan to run with until 5.0 from the looks of things. I just don't see much that would cause me to downrank Scales (especially heroic scales) based on what I'm seeing.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby PsiVen » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:30 pm

degre wrote:I guess in between Souldrinker and all the mastery proccing trinkets Blizzard is definitely telling us that full mastery until cap is not the way to go.


Uh, no. In order to make full use of the mastery proc from that trinket as a paladin you would have to be wearing full PvP gear. It wasn't made for us, and if you drop to 97% CTC you are going to be suddenly taking a lot more than 9k extra health worth of damage at random.

Impale, Void Bolt, Focused Assault, Stomp etc. may not be blockable but the melee attacks right before/after they hit are and we have some of the best personal cooldowns for dealing with them. Paladins gain plenty of avoidance and stamina from gearing; I'll buy that we might have slightly worse scaling but it's vastly overblown. The only real imbalance is our crappy 4pc bonus which is only problematic if you don't carry many feral/fury DPS.

I knew as soon as I read that interview comment that somebody would make a thread about it. It's never productive to argue about which class is so bad that a couple of the top guilds in the world perceive a slight advantage by changing them out.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:35 pm

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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Lieris » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:04 pm

PsiVen wrote:Impale, Void Bolt, Focused Assault, Stomp etc. may not be blockable but the melee attacks right before/after they hit are and we have some of the best personal cooldowns for dealing with them. Paladins gain plenty of avoidance and stamina from gearing; I'll buy that we might have slightly worse scaling but it's vastly overblown. The only real imbalance is our crappy 4pc bonus which is only problematic if you don't carry many feral/fury DPS.


The melee attacks in the case of Yorsahj and Hagara are not worth gearing for. Almost 70% of the damage I took on Hagara was from Focused Assualt, same for Void Bolt with Yorsahj. Being able to block a 70K melee hit when I have over 250K raid buffed health is nice I guess but it's not what's going to kill me (this is on 10 man as Theck is right to point out). Block is good on Ultraxion but even there you are taking more damage from the raid damage than from his melee hits. This is the first raid tier in Cataclysm where there have been a decent number of wipes due to me dying that I know would not have happened if I was playing a different class.

That said, yeah this is overblown and our deficiencies demonstrably don't make progress impossible, just a little harder. If you weren't doing Spine heroic on week 1 of hard modes then you are not in the sort of guild where this matters and even then maybe not: The hardcore group in my guild are still using a protection paladin.

I do think it's a discussion worth having as long as the sky is falling type posts are kept in check.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Pizbit » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:36 pm

Lieris wrote:The melee attacks in the case of Yorsahj and Hagara are not worth gearing for. Almost 70% of the damage I took on Hagara was from Focused Assualt,



Can you not just move away from focused assault like in LFR?
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Jeremoot » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:50 pm

Pizbit wrote:
Lieris wrote:The melee attacks in the case of Yorsahj and Hagara are not worth gearing for. Almost 70% of the damage I took on Hagara was from Focused Assualt,



Can you not just move away from focused assault like in LFR?


On normal you can, I don't know about heroic.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Lieris » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:56 pm

Pizbit wrote:
Lieris wrote:The melee attacks in the case of Yorsahj and Hagara are not worth gearing for. Almost 70% of the damage I took on Hagara was from Focused Assualt,



Can you not just move away from focused assault like in LFR?


Not on heroic, she chases you.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Treck » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:24 pm

Dont disregard what Psiven said tho.
Just cuz someone somewhere replaced pallytank with something else, doesnt mean we should all reroll.
Yes warriors have more raid CDs than we, and the tank generally dont really need their own CDs, so while they choose to use a raid CD or a personal, it doesnt really matter all that much.

Also, they didnt bench the paladin cuz the warrior was taking less damage, or doing to little damage, but rather cuz of warriors insane mobility and their unlimited taunts.
Even those who use a paladin tank, is prolly using a warrior tank to kite the bloods tbh.
And dont think any 4peice t13 warrior is superior to a paladin.
The sucess of the raid is still very dependant on having capable players, and not only the classes.
If you can choose both however, theres really not much reason not to is there?
Its like, dps warriors have a raid CD, something very few dps classes have, but that doesnt mean everyone is stacking the raid with only warriors for permanent rallying cry as their only meele class, and warriors are even very strong aswell.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fetzie » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:11 am

Also, why not put the paladin on Amalgamation tanking and tell the warrior to sort out the adds. Just because the warrior is better at kiting a large amount of mobs doesn't mean that you don't need a tank for the thing that people are trying to kill. And what with having a 40% spell damage reduction for 10 seconds while being able to block the melee swings, I'd say paladins could be fairly awesome for tanking Amalgamations when they have the 9 stacks and are using that fire AoE.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby degre » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:24 am

PsiVen wrote:
degre wrote:I guess in between Souldrinker and all the mastery proccing trinkets Blizzard is definitely telling us that full mastery until cap is not the way to go.


Uh, no. In order to make full use of the mastery proc from that trinket as a paladin you would have to be wearing full PvP gear. It wasn't made for us, and if you drop to 97% CTC you are going to be suddenly taking a lot more than 9k extra health worth of damage at random.

Impale, Void Bolt, Focused Assault, Stomp etc. may not be blockable but the melee attacks right before/after they hit are and we have some of the best personal cooldowns for dealing with them. Paladins gain plenty of avoidance and stamina from gearing; I'll buy that we might have slightly worse scaling but it's vastly overblown. The only real imbalance is our crappy 4pc bonus which is only problematic if you don't carry many feral/fury DPS.

I knew as soon as I read that interview comment that somebody would make a thread about it. It's never productive to argue about which class is so bad that a couple of the top guilds in the world perceive a slight advantage by changing them out.

I am specifically talking of fights where a large health pool is more welcomed than block, on other fights you can simpky swap a mastery trinket and be done with it.

In the case of Hagara what kills you is Focused Assault, so I gear up for that as the rest of the damage is negligible.
In Madness you can die for an unlucky hit right after Impale, but why block cap for it when a blocked hit could kill you all the same and it's easier to stack stamina to soak impale, while the other tank taunt during the cast and save you the trouble?

Mind me, I'm not saying that an extra 10k is going to make a huge difference, it's just that considering the dynamics I feel more the need of a large health pool.

How others have said already, is WOTLK all over again.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:44 am

Lieris wrote:If you weren't doing Spine heroic on week 1 of hard modes then you are not in the sort of guild where this matters and even then maybe not

I don't understand this, if one type of tank makes the fight easier, wouldn't that be true for any guild? I'd think that guilds who aren't performing at elite levels would benefit even more than those that are.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby halabar » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:55 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Lieris wrote:If you weren't doing Spine heroic on week 1 of hard modes then you are not in the sort of guild where this matters and even then maybe not

I don't understand this, if one type of tank makes the fight easier, wouldn't that be true for any guild? I'd think that guilds who aren't performing at elite levels would benefit even more than those that are.


I would think that at lower levels the differences of skill and gear between players makes more of a difference than the class in many cases.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby sahiel » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:57 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Lieris wrote:If you weren't doing Spine heroic on week 1 of hard modes then you are not in the sort of guild where this matters and even then maybe not

I don't understand this, if one type of tank makes the fight easier, wouldn't that be true for any guild? I'd think that guilds who aren't performing at elite levels would benefit even more than those that are.

I think it's more a case that on normal the fights are so forgiving that any tank is fine and that the benefit of using a warrior over a paladin is small enough that unless you were in the world first race you likely won't demand every last single iota possible to the point of sitting a class.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Lieris » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:12 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Lieris wrote:If you weren't doing Spine heroic on week 1 of hard modes then you are not in the sort of guild where this matters and even then maybe not

I don't understand this, if one type of tank makes the fight easier, wouldn't that be true for any guild? I'd think that guilds who aren't performing at elite levels would benefit even more than those that are.


You have barely any gear in the first week so you need to optimise your raid setup (with the huge pool of players and alts these guilds have available it makes sense) and because if you're not doing that sort of progression you are not in the sort of raid group that would replace you just for being a paladin tank. On a personal level paladins being weaker hasn't effected me at all as I am the main tank regardless and we're chugging along nicely. Having a paladin tank will not hamper progression in any significant way for 99% of guilds, the extra damage we take on abilities XYZ can be overcome with skilled healers and smart cooldown usage.
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Re: World First Guild says Prot Paladin Weak?

Postby Worldie » Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:17 pm

Smartness can't stop prejudice.

Remember when that paladin from Nihilum said Paladin tanks were a joke? It didn't matter that many of us had already demostrated that paladins were a viable choice, everyone was believing him and penalizing many paladins because "the big guy from the big guild said so".

Personally, I am being benched in favour of a feral druid alt so not liking much the situation, but I have lost the will of fighting for my spot, just playing a different char until DS hc is cleared and in farm status.
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