Post Your Amusements!

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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Dion » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:42 am

Fetzie wrote:The thing about guides, is that they are not aimed at "top" players. So a talent or ability sequence recommended in a guide will be aimed at those who NEED the guide. The players that just hit random buttons because they don't know better. Just like raid strats from Method or Paragon won't be instantly portable to other raids, because they don't have that extra 20k rDPS that means you can burn through a phase and practically ignore a mechanic.

Guides are heavily based on theorycrafting, from stat weights, rotations, stat breakpoints to talent recommendations. They simplify theorycrafting results and while they add some extra analysis/advice, but when you question/challenge why it advocates use of X, I'm betting that you are going to hear very often that theorycrafting says so.
Fetzie wrote:Just look at the comparisons between the paladin top tier talents. To an expert player, there is a huge difference between using Seraphim and Holy shield (not least because of the damage output potential). But to a player that is just starting out, would you recommend an ability that requires you to think ahead, and plan using holy power so that you have 5 when Seraphim comes off cooldown? Or would you say "take Holy Shield", because it removes a not insignificant level of complexity from the game-play, allowing that rookie player to concentrate on learning their craft and practicing mob placement, learning when to use ShoR and when to use Word of Glory and to learn when to use major cooldowns? Because that, for the target audience of most guides, is what they need to learn.

Otherhand, I wouldn't say to rookie that he/she can't pick Seraphim or Empowered Seals because they are more complex than Holy Shield. My suggestion would be that he/she would try all of them out, then decide himself/herself. (Funny sidenote: There were some arguments that for HFC mythic, Holy Shield would be best pick for survibality) Also,for example Icy-veins guide has lot more writen stuff on other aspects than those basics you listed. Yes, basics are there but there are also much information that rookie should not worry about.
Fetzie wrote:Would you recommend a rookie feral cat druid to use that spec which involves healing yourself at specific times to get a damage boost to certain abilities? It is (well, it was when I was last playing) "the best" build, no question. But a new player will not be able to execute it, meaning that they would likely be better off with the simpler build that might have a lower dps ceiling, but it doesn't have such a low dps floor when you screw it up.

Now to demonstrate: How did learn this? How did you verify that this is indeed the case?
This is one example in the articles test, in which 51% chose that it is not acceptable to keep that talent as guides says that different talent is better.
Fetzie wrote:Yes, it may be "optimal" to use a certain talent. But more often than not, only if you are also playing "optimally".

YI agree with this. I also stated on many, many times that stuffing bamboo under nails is stupid thing to do. Players should pick talents that they like and playstyle those create. It is psychological illusion, as unless you are on Method/Paragon skill level, talent choises really doesn't make or break encounter. Getting better gets kills, not talents.

To illustrate: Theorycrafting states that there is 11% difference in Patchwerk-style fight between "best" and "worst" talent for retribution paladin. That is when everything lines up, stars smile at you and you are king of the world. In reality, that difference is much much smaller and depeds on fight. One should pick talent that fits most on your playstyle and supports your strenghts as player.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:21 am

Dion wrote:
Fetzie wrote:Yes, it may be "optimal" to use a certain talent. But more often than not, only if you are also playing "optimally".

YI agree with this. I also stated on many, many times that stuffing bamboo under nails is stupid thing to do. Players should pick talents that they like and playstyle those create. It is psychological illusion, as unless you are on Method/Paragon skill level, talent choises really doesn't make or break encounter. Getting better gets kills, not talents.

To illustrate: Theorycrafting states that there is 11% difference in Patchwerk-style fight between "best" and "worst" talent for retribution paladin. That is when everything lines up, stars smile at you and you are king of the world. In reality, that difference is much much smaller and depeds on fight. One should pick talent that fits most on your playstyle and supports your strenghts as player.

I do understand your point, I just wanted to add that you know that there's a (arguably big) part of every MMO community that will look at "pros" and advocate that their build is best no matter what, without wondering *why* a pro made that choice and that there's a completely different skill level at place, inevitably taking "Seraphim" without having the skill to use it and underperforming horribly.

Which is my point on "elitism" everytime, pretty much. The population often enough doesnt understand that pros make decisions for reasons, which is why they are pros and why the others are not.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:51 am

Worldie wrote:I do understand your point, I just wanted to add that you know that there's a (arguably big) part of every MMO community that will look at "pros" and advocate that their build is best no matter what, without wondering *why* a pro made that choice and that there's a completely different skill level at place, inevitably taking "Seraphim" without having the skill to use it and underperforming horribly.

Which is my point on "elitism" everytime, pretty much. The population often enough doesnt understand that pros make decisions for reasons, which is why they are pros and why the others are not.


The same can be said for blindly following sims.. or robots. My favorite is the arguing for specific talent and rotation choices when the movement of specific fights negates any bonuses you might have gained.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:57 am

I just wanna voice my agreement with Fetzie her eon what guides are for - this also goes for the EJ guides mostly (there are some, like BM hunter after I retired, that went the path of full spreadsheet guide (and made BM a lot harder for people needing the guide).
Yes, recommendations are based on theorycrafting, but analysing the choices and what they yield is also theorycrafting, and a good theorycrafter can easily say "if you are X percentile use Y (why are you even reading this guide?) and if you are below, use Z" or something to that effect.

I'll also bring to mind that Fetzie actually has quite a few years of experience wiritng and keeping a guide.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Fetzie » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:59 pm

When I was writing my guide (and should I write one for Legion), my target audience was the person you wouldn't want to have tanking an LFR with you. My aim was to make that person capable of tanking LFR and maybe also normal. To give them the basic knowledge and a tool-set to be an acceptably good player. I didn't write it for the people that know it all already, because they don't need a guide. And given that I collected over 150,000 thread views throughout those 3 and a bit years, I think it was a good plan.

Yes, I analysed theorycrafting. Yes, I made myself spreadsheets. Now that I can actually program worth a damn, I might do something with that. But I took that theorycrafting and that knowledge, and tried to explain it from the level of my intended audience. I presented an "easy" way to get decent at the game. It wouldn't have got you into Method or Paragon. Heck, I probably wouldn't have got into Method or Paragon. But it was enough to make you good enough to make friends in WoW by tanking for them. Then, once you've mastered the basics (so you can press the right buttons without looking at your keyboard :)), you can go back to the guide and read the "advanced" sections, which you now understand. Maybe you even understand why I suggested a possibly "non-optimal" talent build to start out with. And now you can probably decide for yourself which talent is best in which situation.

In my opinion, that's what a guide is for. It is for taking the "noobs" and making them "not noobs". If that means they aren't playing on the same level as a top 10 raider while they learn, then so be it. But I wouldn't expect them to anyway (again, if they were then they don't need a guide in the first place).
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Dion » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:10 pm

Nooska, Fetzie I'm not arguing what guides SHOULD be, I argue what they ARE NOW.

I have not read every guide and theorycraft for every class and spec. But I do think that there is certainly problem with current guides and theorycrating based on that article and that Blizzard has told pretty often that one really should not believe all theorycrafting.

I did however take a quick glanse over Icy-Veins, Wowheads, ElitistJerks and Official wow forums Retribution paladin guide. Non seemed to me very rookie friendly. In fact, knowledge provided in those are enough for heroics. Mythics? Hard to say.

Now, if you have found out that that article is wrong and falsely casting guides as general in wrong manner, I would suggest you also take the issue with writer of that article because it's fairly significant thing.

But now go back to article, the situation on talent change was that guides suggest optional talent, others are deemed dps loss in theorycrafting and guides. It's not that there is rookie talent or advanced talent, there were only right talent or wrong talents. This was caused error in theorycraft which was enforced by guides, leaving pretty many fury warriors who followed only theorycrafting and guides with single talent choise instead on three.
Nooska wrote:Yes, recommendations are based on theorycrafting, but analysing the choices and what they yield is also theorycrafting, and a good theorycrafter can easily say "if you are X percentile use Y (why are you even reading this guide?) and if you are below, use Z" or something to that effect

This true if Y>Z. But when Y=Z and you happen by accident or by purpose still state that Y>Z, we have arrived to the bus stop of the problem. This happened with Sudden Death and Furious Strikes talents.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Nooska » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:14 pm

Well I saw Magdalenas guide on DKs to have optional talents, or rather, an explanation of what situations / needs you have what talents for.
During WoD I've gone from the totally passive Rune regen talent (DK) to the medium tier one, because I found out a way to use it effectively (got better).

I think the issue with guides (though I don't actually use them, not even the advanced ones) is that the old garde of guidewriters have moved on, and some people that have a too advanced approach, or too with little communicative abilities have taken them over (very general idea, based on what I HAVE seen, and definately not exhaustive).
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Passionario » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:53 am

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'Profit Velen'
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Era » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:31 pm

Passionario wrote:'Profit Velen'


You made me giggle in a very unmanly fashion on a packed Japanese train.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Era » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:26 am

TIL Socrates was a badass.

Description of him as a soldier on the battlefield of Delium, whilst his comrades were retreating/running away:

"...walking there just as he does here in Athens, 'stalking like a pelican, his eyes darting from side to side,' quietly on the lookout for friends and foes, he made it plain to everyone even at a great distance that if one touches this real man, he will defend himself vigorously."

Source.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Fetzie » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:58 am

Another botter ban-wave.
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Era » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:42 am

Beautiful and somewhat funny video reminiscing about WoW!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je6i5-L0wPA
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 pm

Era wrote:Beautiful and somewhat funny video reminiscing about WoW!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je6i5-L0wPA


So much win!
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Worldie » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:11 pm

I don't know if I should laugh or cry because it's all so damn true D:
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Fetzie » Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:21 am

On a similar topic: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXhm5HpWwAAmnC2.jpg (uses two images from new Star Wars if you haven't seen it already and are worried about that kind of thing)
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Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:44 pm

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The intrepid spaceman Finn crash lands on the mysterious planet of jakku. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/calvinandhobbes?src=hash">#calvinandhobbes</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/starwars?src=hash">#starwars</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/spacemanspiff?src=hash">#spacemanspiff</a> <a href="https://t.co/cwLoFxZOGO">pic.twitter.com/cwLoFxZOGO</a></p>&mdash; Calvin and Hobbes (@Calvinn_Hobbes) <a href="https://twitter.com/Calvinn_Hobbes/status/684562583681134592">January 6, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Worldie » Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:07 am

I think something went wrong there hala :P
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Era » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:00 am

Sadly the forums don't do HTML code! Wish they did, but I'm sure there's a logical reason behind why almost all forums use BBCode instead of HTML.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Worldie » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:58 am

code injections mostly ;)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Wed Jan 06, 2016 2:56 pm

erk.... sadly I didn't have another place to place the image handy...
Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Fetzie » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:33 pm

Screenshot it and upload to imgur.com :)
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby halabar » Wed Jan 06, 2016 10:54 pm

Amirya wrote:... because everyone needs a Catagonskin rug.

twinkfist wrote:i feel bad for the Mogu...having to deal with alcoholic bears.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Era » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:51 pm

Japan Keeps This Defunct Train Station Running for Just One Passenger
The train makes only two stops—one when a lone high-school student leaves for school and the other when she returns.


http://www.citylab.com/commute/2016/01/ ... er/423273/
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Worldie » Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:41 am

Fandral officially renamed Broccoli. I can't stop laughing.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Re: Post Your Amusements!

Postby Era » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:54 pm

"How to drink your morning coffee in Norway"
https://youtu.be/SLs-egzZxS4
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